TheClark Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 On a side note I do give Lexi props for hanging in there and sticking it out. This thread has seems to be 12 against 1. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Yep, I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rworegon Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 The AR platform is powerful and shoots as fast as you can pull the trigger. It's more than you need for hunting or personal protection. I'm no gun expert, so perhaps there are other rifles that are equally dangerous. If so, I don't think they are necessary either. I think the more realistic approach to making an impact on the gun violence problem is universal background checks, however. The AR fires a projectile only slightly larger than a .22 cal. It does travel faster and have more punch but compared to say a .308 or a 7mm mag, both popular hunting rifles, does not have the same stopping power. So in that respect the AR round is not really that powerful. The main thing people have against it is that it's a semi-automatic, and it looks mean. I liken the stigma of AR's to that of Pit bulls. In the hands of the wrong people they can be dangerous. If handled properly they can be your best friend. And I also must respect Lex, even though we disagree, I have to respect the backbone shown in the face of overwhelming opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackice Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 (edited) The AR platform is powerful and shoots as fast as you can pull the trigger. It's more than you need for hunting or personal protection. I'm no gun expert, so perhaps there are other rifles that are equally dangerous. If so, I don't think they are necessary either. To be honest it's more the bullet then the gun take a look at this. I think the more realistic approach to making an impact on the gun violence problem is universal background checks, however. Edited October 6, 2015 by Blackice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackice Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 The AR platform is powerful and shoots as fast as you can pull the trigger. It's more than you need for hunting or personal protection. I'm no gun expert, so perhaps there are other rifles that are equally dangerous. If so, I don't think they are necessary either. this also shots as fast as you pull the trigger but there is never any hate on revolvers. And that's a 500 s&w God help you if you get shot with that!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriz2fer Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Because street racing cars are illegal to drive on the highway that means that we are well on our way to ALL cars being banned. http://faze.ca/illegal-street-racing-the-real-world-of-the-fast-the-furious/ This is called the "slippery slope" logical fallacy. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope lexi we don't have a constitutional right to street race. The founding fathers believed that the citizens keeping guns help keep us from tyranny in check. Its the second amendment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriz2fer Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Well then how about Australia, all of Western Europe, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, etc....? There are lots of examples of comparable societies in the developed world with sensible gun laws and much lower murder rates than ours. To deny this is simply an exercise in futility. Japan is often brought into the discussion when the potential influence of video games on gun violence is brought up (as opposed to easy access to guns), since they play more violent video games then us but have a very low murder rate. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2012/12/17/ten-country-comparison-suggests-theres-little-or-no-link-between-video-games-and-gun-murders/ Actually, new Orleans has the highest murder rate in the US. But, no matter. Chicago has a huge problem, no doubt about that. Of course, I could use glib logic and say "Imagine how bad a problem Chicago would have if it didn't have restrictions on guns?" This is possible, but the reality is likely that the effectiveness of city-wide restrictions on guns is limited. A city with tough gun laws is an island in a sea of easy guns, so it isn't surprising to me if they are not that effective. You have the same problem when states have gun restrictions, but are surrounded by states with easy gun access. That's why I support a federal system of background checks. Lexi we have over 320 MILLION PEOPLE in the us. Australia has 28 MILLION PEOPLE DO YOU SEE the difference? do you honestly think apples to apples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexinverts Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 (edited) Lexi we have over 320 MILLION PEOPLE in the us. Australia has 28 MILLION PEOPLE DO YOU SEE the difference? do you honestly think apples to apples? Do you understand what a PER CAPITA statistic is? But, fair enough, how about we compare Sidney Australia to any large US city. Below is a quote about Sydney from the US department of state. "In general, the gun-related violence in Sydney has remained stable over the past year and is remarkably low when compared to major U.S. cities." "Sydney’s murder rate has halved in the past decade, falling to its lowest level in recent history. The current rate of one homicide per 100,000 people is the lowest in many years, according to BOSCAR. " Chicago's is 15 per 100,000, which is 15 x the rate in Sydney. New Orleans has a rate of 57.6 per 100,000. You can read the whole thing here: https://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=13864 Edited October 6, 2015 by Lexinverts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexinverts Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 lexi we don't have a constitutional right to street race. The founding fathers believed that the citizens keeping guns help keep us from tyranny in check. Its the second amendment. We have a right to drive a car. Street racing is also driving. It is illegal because of regulation. We have a constitutional right to have guns, but that does mean that they cannot be regulated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexinverts Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 (edited) lexi we don't have a constitutional right to street race. The founding fathers believed that the citizens keeping guns help keep us from tyranny in check. Its the second amendment. FYI, Krizzy, this is the text of the second amendment, "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Do you think we should ignore the part about security and well-regulated? I would feel more secure on my campus if any crazy person in one of my classes didn't have such an easy time putting together an arsenal. Edited October 6, 2015 by Lexinverts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragged Posted October 6, 2015 Author Share Posted October 6, 2015 FYI, Krizzy, this is the text of the second amendment, "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Do you think we should ignore the part about security and well-regulated? I would feel more secure on my campus if any crazy person in one of my classes didn't have such an easy time putting together an arsenal. I think we call that treason now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVPaquatics Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Why is it always after an incident like this the talk is always over how people were killed and never the why? Stop the crazy not the tools they use to kill. Crazy will always find a way to kill. Take firearms away and they will use knives, poisons, bombs etc. Stop the problem at the source. Maybe post some facts about the US vs. The world in terms of mental health instead of firearms issues. Stop the violence at the source. Stop talking about regulating law abiding citizen rights and talk about fixing the problem about WHY these people do it 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald525 Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 On a side note I do give Lexi props for hanging in there and sticking it out. This thread has seems to be 12 against 1. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk In the past I would have posted something but I have learned not to post political arguments on this forum. I am by no means afraid to express my opinion. However if your goal is to try to get your point across, it goes nowhere since the majority of people on here are very much against any talk about stricter gun legislation. People aren't hearing a thing and aren't learning from each other because they are too busy trying to prove their point. Andy has presented some valid arguments particularly the information about Australia. I have to say that I am very impressed and proud of everyone for keeping things civil. This thread could have gone downhill very quickly. The gun control argument is a very emotionally charged one. If the goal is for people to consider changing their strong stance against gun control it's not going to happen on this forum where many of you have not met Andy. You have to know someone and respect someone before you are able to hear their side. One of the great things about this place is there are so many different personalities on here and I have learned so much from them. And please know that I am not a gun hating liberal. I get why people like them and why they are so attached to them. I do have to admit It really was a foreign concept to me as to why people felt they needed to have an entire closet full of different type of guns including sniper rifles and assault rifles and hand guns. Call me crazy but I just thought you would need one and ammo in order to hunt. I'm not saying that to be sarcastic or belittle anyone who does have a full arsenal, I just really didn't understand. In speaking with some of you particularly Brad, I understand it a little bit more. I have considered getting a gun myself. I did grow up in Texas and I have shot them and I loved the power of shooting a 45. However, I don't know enough about them and they are dangerous. I know a lot about dogs and find German Shepherds are much more reliable for protetion. Personally I am sad to see small children being shot and schools being targeted. I know all of you are. It is happening to much here and Oregon seems to have too many of these. Off the top of my head I can think of Centennial High School,the most recent shooting at Roseburg, and let's not forget Clackamas mall. However nothing is going to change until people realize that what is currently happening is not working and they are willing to say "hey yes I love my guns and I don't want anyone to tell me what to do but something has got to give". It actually does give me hope that people such as Matty who grew up with guns are starting to see that yes indeed the system is broken we need more regulation. I also liked the paper that Higher Thinking presented about the NRA. It was not a surprise to me, as they are a political group with a very narrow self interest. The argument that it doesn't work because one state has stricter gun laws but worse crime because states are not on an island. You can't get a gun in Washington easily then go to Oregon. We have to come together as a country and I don't think that will happen sadly until more shootings occur and more deaths occur and it starts affecting more people personally. Right now gun regulation is too much of a hot ticket item and so politicians know they risk career suicide if they take strong stance in support of this. I am not going to argue the facts and Lexi, I completely get why you felt the need to speak. You do not want to see another meaningless death. I am listening to both sides and listening to other solutions and respect each and every one of you on here. I am not following this thread as close as I was before because I signed on to this forum to talk about reefing. I hope that we can come together and talk about fish and corals again soon! Also don't get me started on the mental health system and how broken it is. I am well aware of that! Peace and happy reefing all! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexinverts Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Why is it always after an incident like this the talk is always over how people were killed and never the why? Stop the crazy not the tools they use to kill. Crazy will always find a way to kill. Take firearms away and they will use knives, poisons, bombs etc. Stop the problem at the source. Maybe post some facts about the US vs. The world in terms of mental health instead of firearms issues. Stop the violence at the source. Stop talking about regulating law abiding citizen rights and talk about fixing the problem about WHY these people do it Haven't you read all 110 posts in this thread? We have talked about mental health as well, and have covered most of the things that you mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVPaquatics Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Haven't you read all 110 posts in this thread? We have talked about mental health as well, and have covered most of the things that you mentioned. But you are still talking about firearm regulation so I don't think you really get it... I'm not even going to bother with analogies or comparisons. If it doesn't make sense to attack the root of the problem and not the tools used in a problem I guess you just won't ever understand. Taking away or regulating firearms won't stop the problem. And it seems people won't understand until firearms are gone and psychos find another way. Then it might sink in 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Conservatives in this country have argued with the main point of "they will take all of our guns away" for years, yet that hasn't happened and it won't. If making guns harder to get for people who have no business having them helps save even one life, why not try? It won't affect those people who legally own and carry guns, only those with something to hide. The sides in this argument come down to 2 types of people, those who will allow change and those who find change scary. The founding fathers argument is not valid in my opinion, they could have never foreseen where weapons technology and mental stability and health would be so many years in the future. It's time to adapt our laws and rules to the present. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoringDave Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVPaquatics Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Conservatives in this country have argued with the main point of "they will take all of our guns away" for years, yet that hasn't happened and it won't. If making guns harder to get for people who have no business having them helps save even one life, why not try? It won't affect those people who legally own and carry guns, only those with something to hide. The sides in this argument come down to 2 types of people, those who will allow change and those who find change scary. The founding fathers argument is not valid in my opinion, they could have never foreseen where weapons technology and mental stability and health would be so many years in the future. It's time to adapt our laws and rules to the present. It's not the right Avenue of change. It won't change anything. I wouldn't even call it a band aid. Attack the root of the problem. When guns are gone and they switch to knives, regulate or bans those? Then when they switch to bombs, regulate or ban all bomb making materials? There would be no end. How about investing in ways and ideas to make it so people don't want to do these kinds of things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVPaquatics Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 http://youtu.be/hR3t7j2tUec That is great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 It's not the right Avenue of change. It won't change anything. I wouldn't even call it a band aid. Attack the root of the problem. When guns are gone and they switch to knives, regulate or bans those? Then when they switch to bombs, regulate or ban all bomb making materials? There would be no end. How about investing in ways and ideas to make it so people don't want to do these kinds of things? The amount of damage you can do with a knife before you are stopped doesn't compare to that of a gun. Bombs have always been used and their components have been regulated and kept track of, no one bitched about that except farmers. For the record, I very much agree that we need to address the issue of mental illness, depression, and other factors contributing to these shootings but I also think an honest discussion about the role guns play in these events is another front to start on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tat2d Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Many politicians have admitted (directly or accidentally) that confiscation is the goal. Sorry if I don't believe them when they say no one is going to take away my best tool for self defense. I am tired of my rights being taken away every time some whackjob decides he wants to be famous. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeasileyBub Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 All of the other sensible people have stayed away from this thread. I have gotten some private messages of support, however, from people that are better at recognizing an exercise in futility than I am. I think this is a great thread. At this point it looks like a debate between an individual who is willing to concede differences in thought and potentially be open to new *enlightening* information, should there be relevant facts to support that point. I would hate to see this degrade into a "he/she" said "he/she" said farcical where individuals are sticks in the mud. Which isn't to say that I'm arguing people should concede or adopt opinions only that it would be nice to see if those who oppose his view point were to at least try and understand the perspective Lexinverts is coming from. Real understanding comes from mutual respect and I hope that's happening here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Many politicians have admitted (directly or accidentally) that confiscation is the goal. Sorry if I don't believe them when they say no one is going to take away my best tool for self defense. I am tired of my rights being taken away every time some whackjob decides he wants to be famous. What rights have you had taken from you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheClark Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 I have heard good points on either side. Perhaps some would call me stupid but the logic in this video appeals to me. There has been much appealing logic in this thread, a good discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoringDave Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 I think this has gone quite well even with me stoking the fire now and then. I belong to another forum that this would have gone to hell in a hand basket from hour one. Also lex would have been flamed off the forum. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackice Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 (edited) I would not mind nationwide background checks we have them in Oregon now and it took less than 20 minutes for me to put purchased my last pistol that's not a big deal to me if you can keep Felons from purchasing guns at gun shows and gun shops then so be it. But in reality criminals don't purchase guns that have their names tied to them, they Buy off the black market with the serial numbers grind off and most likely modified in a I legal manner. The gun laws that we have now are silly and most of them are quite dumb if you start looking into some of them liked SBR's versus pistols versus a regular rifle is just silly and the fact that silencers are nfa item is also a little silly why is it trying to shoot a gun quietly keeping my neighbors happy and saving my hearing at the same time such a bad thing? Lex I hope you can open your mind a little bit and here were trying to say most of us I have guns or four gun regulation that smart and will help the situation i'm trying to keep an open mind on your guises opposing points also. You know it's funny I don't even own an AR 15 LOL Edited October 6, 2015 by Blackice 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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