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I agree with this to point' date=' but it is truly subjective, what may be ideal and perfect for one person is not the same for the other...Plus we has humans tend to always think the grass is greener on the other side and then we get over there and we see another fence and the grass is greener over there. It is a never ending process. ...I just think sometimes, people complain a whole bunch, but never really live in the reality that the country they live in is not perfect or ideal, and possibly the grass is not greener on the other side. There are lots of things I would change about this country, but that does not mean I take it for granted.[/quote']

 

My dad was in the military as I was growing up. As a young adult I was in the military. I speak from experience our grass is the greenist

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My dad was in the military as I was growing up. As a young adult I was in the military. I speak from experience our grass is the greenist

 

Fair enough... What I wrote was not directed at you or anyone in this post...I just simply quoted you because I did agree with you on something. and then just used the rest of the thread to say what I had to say. I do agree that we have the greenest grass...

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Honestly, when it comes to bad doctors... i just keep myself informed and when something is wrong i diagnose myself then go to the doctor. tell him what i think and would like to try and he usually agrees with me. it makes my appointments much faster and i figure blaming the doc won't help so this way i can blame myself. besides, who knows how you feel better than you... plus, I am usually right and am cured much faster :D

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I hear a lot of people saying a lot of things about socialized health care but no facts one way or the other. I found a good website that lists a bunch of studies and numbers.

 

http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archives/000654.htm

 

One of the first things you will notice is that Americans pay over $4,000 dollars per capita for health care in 2000. The numbers have grown since 2000.

 

The U.K was 1,400, France was 2000 and Canada was 2300. All three of these countries were profiled in the film. Its seems to me that if I had an extra 2K to spend on something else besides insurance....new skimmer, larger tank, kalk reactor, lots of corals......I would be happy.

 

Not to mention that your employer would not have to pay the insurance cost and would have more money to pay you or perhaps reinstate some sort of pention...pention what is that?

 

There is a reason, why we are the leading country for pretty much everything.

 

Dude, we are ranked 37th in the world in health care, our education is ranked something like 20th, and I am not sure about you, but Ford and Chevy are not exactly what they used to be. Not to mention that China owns a grip of this country. Take a peak at that link.

 

No one is trying to make this a socialist country. I just want everyone to have healthcare. As MM says in the film, we have fire dept., police, education. All are "socialized," why not healthcare?

 

 

in the end... I have great insurance and i am a regular working Joe (or Ryan as the case may be). my prescription meds never go over $10 for generic or $40 for name brand, and i have never had a problem getting treatment and never have had to pay more than my own co-pay.

 

Twitter, this is the point of the movie. It is those of us who have "good" healthcare that should be most worried.

 

Curious what socialized health care system did you live under?

 

I understand why people dont like Michael Moore, but honestly this film is different. I would encourage you to find a copy somewhere and at least give it a try.

 

Curious what socialized health care system did you live under?

 

Lastly, does anyone disagree that everyone should have access to treatment, when treatment is available? For profit companies will always be accountable to the bottom dollar and not the patient. Isnt health care supposed to put the patient first? Wouldnt you want your doctors to put you first if you were dieing?

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I hear a lot of people saying a lot of things about socialized health care but no facts one way or the other. I found a good website that lists a bunch of studies and numbers.

 

http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archives/000654.htm

 

One of the first things you will notice is that Americans pay over $4,000 dollars per capita for health care in 2000. The numbers have grown since 2000.

 

The U.K was 1,400, France was 2000 and Canada was 2300. All three of these countries were profiled in the film. Its seems to me that if I had an extra 2K to spend on something else besides insurance....new skimmer, larger tank, kalk reactor, lots of corals......I would be happy.

 

Not to mention that your employer would not have to pay the insurance cost and would have more money to pay you or perhaps reinstate some sort of pention...pention what is that?

 

 

 

Dude, we are ranked 37th in the world in health care, our education is ranked something like 20th, and I am not sure about you, but Ford and Chevy are not exactly what they used to be. Not to mention that China owns a grip of this country. Take a peak at that link.

 

No one is trying to make this a socialist country. I just want everyone to have healthcare. As MM says in the film, we have fire dept., police, education. All are "socialized," why not healthcare?

 

 

 

 

Twitter, this is the point of the movie. It is those of us who have "good" healthcare that should be most worried.

 

Curious what socialized health care system did you live under?

 

I understand why people dont like Michael Moore, but honestly this film is different. I would encourage you to find a copy somewhere and at least give it a try.

 

Curious what socialized health care system did you live under?

 

Lastly, does anyone disagree that everyone should have access to treatment, when treatment is available? For profit companies will always be accountable to the bottom dollar and not the patient. Isnt health care supposed to put the patient first? Wouldnt you want your doctors to put you first if you were dieing?

 

I for one take the "blog" with a grain of salt(which when people who do not agree with global warming quoted blogs, we got taken to the cleaners, saying they have no validity and we are crazy for using them, but yet you do the same) ... It claims we are only 2 above Cuba in health care...I am not sure about you, but you could not pay me to have health care in cuba, so this really holds no validity with me.

 

Did I say we are #1 in everything, no we are not...Do not even try to compare us to China, the only reason why China is doing so well, is because of us, because of our engineers creating things, then the business sending them stuff to make a higher profit on lower priced merchandise (because to many of us as a society said we needer cheaper goods)...This will be a major down fall to us here in the near future, considering China holds 50% of our papers...but that is another subject that is way off topic here...

 

Everything, the few people have said about being in a country where health care is "free"? They said it was horrible and no one gets taken care of...

 

As for the comment that police, fire and education are socialized, bad arguement...We are having nothing but problems with all 3, we have half as many cops on the road as we did 20 years ago, but twice as many people, schools are closing and education is failing, so for the argument that this all justifies us going socialized on health care is ludacris! They can not get those right, so why put the health care system on that system. I personally think these all should be privatized. My defense to that is, look at city construction and projects, there was a time that the government controlled this, but nothing was getting done, for all the same reasons that there is not enough money for cops and teachers. So they went private with it and started contracting everything, there are more projects going on then ever before...

 

I do not think everyone should have health care!!!! I think only working people should have it, cause they are earning it (when I say working, I mean, worked, or laid off and actively seeking a job), I think that the government needs to get rid of all the things that they require you to have in order to have insurance, if they do this health care will be much more affordable and mal-practice needs to be put in check. I do not want lazy people being able to use my money to go to a doctor, I do not want illegals having health care either...

 

Isnt health care about the patient? Yes, but now you are talking about morals, no matter how much or how little money the health care system has, it should always be about the patient, but socialized will health care will not solve this... "Didn't the customer used to be always right" Not anymore...

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for one take the "blog" with a grain of salt(which when people who do not agree with global warming quoted blogs, we got taken to the cleaners, saying they have no validity and we are crazy for using them, but yet you do the same) ... It claims we are only 2 above Cuba in health care...I am not sure about you, but you could not pay me to have health care in cuba, so this really holds no validity with me.

 

This just goes to show how ignorant you are reefgeek. You habitually state opinion and talking points.

 

You are right, I linked to a blog, except the blog had actual data that you probably didnt look at or bother to read. Cuba has great health care...FYI

 

Did I say we are #1 in everything, no we are not...Do not even try to compare us to China, the only reason why China is doing so well, is because of us, because of our engineers creating things, then the business sending them stuff to make a higher profit on lower priced merchandise (because to many of us as a society said we needer cheaper goods)...This will be a major down fall to us here in the near future, considering China holds 50% of our papers...but that is another subject that is way off topic here...

 

I am comparing us to China!

 

(wife)

 

Everything, the few people have said about being in a country where health care is "free"? They said it was horrible and no one gets taken care of...

 

I would love them to elaborate. I bet if they needed heart surgery they would have gotten it. Or if they had cancer and needed an experimental treatment, they would have received it. No?

 

As for the comment that police, fire and education are socialized, bad arguement...We are having nothing but problems with all 3, we have half as many cops on the road as we did 20 years ago, but twice as many people, schools are closing and education is failing, so for the argument that this all justifies us going socialized on health care is ludacris! They can not get those right, so why put the health care system on that system. I personally think these all should be privatized. My defense to that is, look at city construction and projects, there was a time that the government controlled this, but nothing was getting done, for all the same reasons that there is not enough money for cops and teachers. So they went private with it and started contracting everything, there are more projects going on then ever before...

 

Why are all three in "bad shape?" They aint gots no money.

 

I bet that if we had class sizes of 20 instead of 36 or 40 our education would be better.

 

Maybe we should privatize social security, the army, intelligence and national defense. Halliburton isnt robbing the american people six ways from Sunday.....errrrr. Dont you see that health care IS privatized and doing a terrible job at serving the patient? You have lost your marbles.

 

Why do you think there are half as many police on the street as there should be? Because you and your awesome neo-conservative republican friends got measure five passed, not to mention the lack of common sense Oregonians have in not passing a sales tax...repeatedly. Its like sitting on stool with two legs.

 

Maybe we should eliminate all taxes and give everyone a gun.

 

mal-practice needs to be put in check.

 

Malpractice is not the problem. I guess the Harvard study was not good enough for you.

 

I do not want lazy people being able to use my money to go to a doctor, I do not want illegals having health care either...

 

It official...you are the devil. Human being dont need health care. If an illegal immigrant slices off a finger, we should let them bleed to death....good idea. Human beings dont have a right live better lives. You make me sick. I guess that is the difference between you and me. You have bourgeoisie, better than though attitude, like too many Americans. I care about all people, you rank them first, then care about the people you think deserve things.

 

alas, you will only dig in your heals and stick to your talking points. No doubt you will attempt a rebuttal and claim I always attack you, i look forward to it.

 

Bottom line, I want real health care reform and I want something that works for everyone. However you can make that happen, I am willing to listen. Obviously both sides of the isle will have to make some sacrifices, but for once I would love to see politicians do something that is good for EVERYONE.

 

An enlightened citizenry is indispensable for the proper functioning of a republic

 

Go read

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Bottom line, I want real health care reform and I want something that works for everyone. However you can make that happen, I am willing to listen. Obviously both sides of the isle will have to make some sacrifices, but for once I would love to see politicians do something that is good for EVERYONE.

 

I agree with you on this... I am not saying any more...take that for what you will, call me coward, but there is nothing further to say or argue, we are on either side of the fence on this one... But I would like to see the above statement happen, that I will agree with you on...

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Yes lets increase taxes so that nobody has any money. That is like saying that if I raise all my prices on things in the store I will make more money. Cutting taxes increases revenues for companies which in turn creates more jobs which employs more people which cuts back on the amount that we are paying for unemployed people which generates more revenue. The problem with this state is that the people in charge have no idea what the heck they are doing. You raise the minimum wage it makes it harder on business to keep people employed so they have 2 choices they can raise the prices on everything they sell or they can employ less people. Texas is one of the wealthiest states in the union and they privatized a lot of their different programs. They have privatized road maintainence on some of their roads and those are the nicest ones. The ones the state takes care of are in bad shape.

 

Ok so you want to save everyone then what is wrong with the Iraq war. Saddam Hussein was killing hundreds of thousands of people and thumbing his nose at the rest of the world while doing it. So why is it better to supply health care to people that break our laws but not alright to save people from tyranny and oppression. I say if they want to try to come to our country illegally then they should be prepared to suffer. This country is far to weak on crime not because we don't have enough cops but because they won't do their jobs and then when they actually do catch someone they are in jail for a couple of days and right back out. They just don't care anymore. They would rather sit on the freeway writing speeding tickets than taking care of the people that pay their salaries.

 

We need to start at the top with reforms not the bottom. If we try to reform health care with our current government all the money will get used up for special projects written into the bills. We need to put our votes out not for people that tell us what we want to hear but for people that will actually get something done. I am tired of politicians taking polls to find out what their position is going to be during election time. When something is popular like the war they are all for it but when it starts to go bad they want to run. What if the French would have said to heck with these guys during our fight for freedom. Now is a time to have some intestinal fortitude and deal with hardship. Vote for people that have unpopular ideas because these are the people that are telling the truth. Quit putting up with politician misspending our hard earned money. This is supposed to be the land of opportunity. This thought brought many people here from around the world legally. That doesn't mean sit around and milk the government for all you can get it means work hard and you will get ahead.

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Same old folks with the same old story.....

I was in russia for 2 years... to answer your question.

 

Don't even get me started on the immigration side of things. the illegals have been stealing from us for far to long.

 

I dont think anyone is trying to compare what we should do to Russia. What years were you there? Just curious. Thanks for the reply.

 

Also, I think most people think that we need immigration reform but what I dont understand is why this is such a huge issue now;twenty years ago would have been much more prudent. Illegal immigration has been happening for the entire existence of the U.S. Our economy needs these people, but I DO agree there needs to be major reforms, not including building a stupid fence.

 

I am sorry but it is ridiculous to deny care to someone who needs it. To do so is not ethical or moral and doctors take a Hippocratic oath for a reason.

 

 

 

SeanF, Im begging you put the conservative talk radio down. Repeat, turn off your radio. DOH!

 

Yes lets increase taxes so that nobody has any money.

 

Yes, lets discuss taxes.....and no that is not what anyone is saying. I said that currently the average American Spends OVER 4000 dollars on health care per year. Secondly, all the other countries with health national health care pay far less per capita. Doesnt it make sense that the taxes for this health care would be under 4000 dollars....i can hear your argument now. Obviously, our awesome politicians would try to crank up the prices. That is why we are here.

 

Who shares the biggest tax burden in our country???? Certainly not the rich folks.....lets define rich. People who make over say, 100+ million dollars. How can someone who makes millions and millions of dollars pay a smaller percentage of taxes than his or her secretary? That doesn't make sense. Or how about coorperations not paying any tax at all? What the hell?

 

You might say that these people will stimulate our economy with this extra, non taxed money. I say Trickle Down Economics failed all Americans.

 

Ok so you want to save everyone then what is wrong with the Iraq war. Saddam Hussein was killing hundreds of thousands(NOT ACCURATE Kool Aid swallowed) of people and thumbing his nose at the rest of the world while doing it.

 

We could spend a lot of time on the Iraq war, but we wont. Sadaam Hussein had national health care. :) Go read some more.

 

So why is it better to supply health care to people that break our laws but not alright to save people from tyranny and oppression. I say if they want to try to come to our country illegally then they should be prepared to suffer.

 

Boy, I aggree. If someone wants to save their family from poverty and sickness by going somewhere with opportunity...screw them. Let them die if they get sick.

 

I 100% agree with you that Immigration needs reform....bigtime, but I think it is subhuman, cruel and mean to make them prepare to "suffer." These are human beings.

 

The topic of discussion is great word to describe you.

 

This country is far to weak on crime not because we don't have enough cops but because they won't do their jobs and then when they actually do catch someone they are in jail for a couple of days and right back out. They just don't care anymore. They would rather sit on the freeway writing speeding tickets than taking care of the people that pay their salaries.

 

This must be why we have millions of people locked up in prison and the largest penal system in the world...good call....lets be more tough on crime. nearly half the people in jail are black even though something around 20% of the population.

 

You are really off your rocker if you think that the reason cops arent doing "their jobs" is because they dont care....You were just talking about changing the system from the top down, this area needs the same type of change.

 

 

 

Moving on, how many of us that chimed in have actually taken the time to go see the movie and maybe do a little reading on the side to bolster your arguments?

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So enlightened one where should I read all this great information. Should I go to some liberal blog where they make up facts and figures to support their point. The funny thing about studies is that depending on who is doing the study the facts always seem to support their point of view. Lets try using a little common sense. I cannot think of one thing run by the government where there isn't a huge amount of waste. If you can I am welcome to hear about it.

 

Where are you facts to support the fact that trickle down economics doesn't work. In order for a capitalist society to work money has to be spent. The more money you take away in taxes the less people have to spend. The reason why some companies get breaks on at least local taxes is to bring jobs to an area. These jobs translate into more people being able to spend money in local businesses thus generating more revenue for the local government in taxes.

 

You like to use the "talking points" statement. Well all the things that you are talking about are left wing talking points.

 

Yes I don't like people that break the law. I don't see anything wrong with that. Yes I don't have sympathy for murders, rapists, or even just people that shoplift. Yes their country sucks but that is not our fault. If we let them keep coming our country will be just like theirs. Yes the time to stop it would have ideally been awhile ago but that is not justification for not rounding them up and sending them back now.

 

As far as 50% of people in Jail being black I don't know where you are going with that. Probably over 99% of people in jail deserve to be there. Jail is to easy that is why people keep going back. If jail was tough maybe when the criminals got out in the real world they might actually try to make an honest living instead of just going back to breaking the laws. Two ways to make jails less crowded. Make jail a living hell. These people broke the law. They more than likely affected other people in a negative way but hey let them sit around all day and watch cable and work out. That sounds rough doesn't it. The second is to not let all the murderers sit on death row for a decade. 2 years is more than enough time to get through their appeals and get them out of the jail.

 

As far as the cops not doing their jobs let me just ask you this question? When do most cops work? During the day. When do most crimes occur? At night. The neighborhood I used to live in was one of the worst in Springfield for theft. Great to find this out after you move in. I saw cops drive by all day long but there was never a cop around in the middle of the night. My vehicle was broken into 5 times while I was there. You call the cops they won't even bother to come out. The kidsport office that was right around the corner from me was broken into 12 times in one year. Probably by the same people over and over again. Rather than taking a proactive approach they just kept letting it happen. You are completely right about me. I have no sympathy for anyone who has no respect for other people and illegal immigrants take jobs away from other people. Yes they are jobs that most people wouldn't want to do but maybe if we quite making life so easy for people that are lazy they would get off their butts and appreciate the ability to have a job. I guarantee during the depression people would have loved to have those jobs.

 

In fact too many people in this country don't appreciate what they have. It is part of the reason why so many americans are so far in debt. Everybody is so hung up on material possesions and so they end up working so many hours that they don't get to see their family but their kids have all the toys they could possibly want.

 

You are right I am just an evil guy that happens to give thousands of dollars to charity every year. I just want to make sure that this country doesn't get screwed up like so many others in this world.

 

"I said that currently the average American Spends OVER 4000 dollars on health care per year. Secondly, all the other countries with health national health care pay far less per capita. Doesnt it make sense that the taxes for this health care would be under 4000 dollars"

 

How does this make any sense. If on average an american spends over 4000 on health care how are you going to increase taxes less than 4000 per person to cover national health care. That seems like some funny math to me. You keep saying that countries with national health care pay less per capita. Again is that out of pocket expense or in taxes. Where do your numbers come from? I am guessing that they come out of the movie. I will not give that blow hard any of my money to go see his movie.

 

I know I won't change your mind so go ahead and vote for the people that can't get anything done. I will vote for the person that I feel is the most honest no matter what side of the isle they sit on.

 

Also for your information I watch Fox News the news station with the highest ratings in america. I don't listen to the radio. Since you brought up the radio though what happened to Air America. Ohh thats right they went bankrupt. Why did they go bankrupt. My guess is because they had liberals running it with the same theories they have on the economy.

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So enlightened one where should I read all this great information. Should I go to some liberal blog where they make up facts and figures to support their point. The funny thing about studies is that depending on who is doing the study the facts always seem to support their point of view. Lets try using a little common sense. I cannot think of one thing run by the government where there isn't a huge amount of waste. If you can I am welcome to hear about it.

 

Ya go read some liberal blogs. I like that idea.

 

Where are you facts to support the fact that trickle down economics doesn't work. In order for a capitalist society to work money has to be spent. The more money you take away in taxes the less people have to spend. The reason why some companies get breaks on at least local taxes is to bring jobs to an area. These jobs translate into more people being able to spend money in local businesses thus generating more revenue for the local government in taxes.

 

Just my opinion as things have been going downhill since, oh I dont know, I was born. People have less money, less savings, more debt and more costs.

 

Do you get tax breaks? How about the huge cooperation making plenty in profit? Who should have the larger tax burden?

 

We have given the wealth far too easy of time with taxes. Its time the tax code was seriously reformed so we can have a middle class again.

 

You like to use the "talking points" statement. Well all the things that you are talking about are left wing talking points.

 

No they are my opinions. I did not hear someone tell me what to think. I tend to read a lot and made up my own mind.

 

 

Yes their country sucks but that is not our fault. If we let them keep coming our country will be just like theirs. Yes the time to stop it would have ideally been awhile ago but that is not justification for not rounding them up and sending them back now.

 

Our country will never be like Mexico my friend and certainly not because they all "immigrate" here. that is a pretty ridiculous statement.

 

So you want to round up millions of people and send them back? Hmm, that sounds cheap, easy and effective.

 

As far as 50% of people in Jail being black I don't know where you are going with that. Probably over 99% of people in jail deserve to be there. Jail is to easy that is why people keep going back. If jail was tough maybe when the criminals got out in the real world they might actually try to make an honest living instead of just going back to breaking the laws. Two ways to make jails less crowded. Make jail a living hell. These people broke the law. They more than likely affected other people in a negative way but hey let them sit around all day and watch cable and work out. That sounds rough doesn't it. The second is to not let all the murderers sit on death row for a decade. 2 years is more than enough time to get through their appeals and get them out of the jail.

 

Are you serious? Honestly? Amazing. So people that go to jail get out of jail and easily find a well paying job that they can support themselves. oh and they were totally rehabilitated in prison. There were lots of programs to deal with their emotional and mental issues. They probably did not learn any new illegal behaviors in prison. Life must be really easy in prison with all the gangs, violence, rape, murder, etc. I wish I was living on easy street.

 

Not sure about this, but I once read that it is cheaper to keep someone in jail for life than to execute them.

 

Are you so naive that you think hardened criminals can plain stop doing all the activities they have known all their life? People do not get rehabilitated in jail and we wonder why the recidivist rates are so high.

Have you ever been to prison? Visited? Doesnt seem like a real nice place. It would classify as pretty close to hell for me.

 

 

As far as the cops not doing their jobs let me just ask you this question? When do most cops work? During the day. When do most crimes occur? At night. The neighborhood I used to live in was one of the worst in Springfield for theft. Great to find this out after you move in. I saw cops drive by all day long but there was never a cop around in the middle of the night. My vehicle was broken into 5 times while I was there. You call the cops they won't even bother to come out. The kidsport office that was right around the corner from me was broken into 12 times in one year. Probably by the same people over and over again. Rather than taking a proactive approach they just kept letting it happen. You are completely right about me. I have no sympathy for anyone who has no respect for other people and illegal immigrants take jobs away from other people. Yes they are jobs that most people wouldn't want to do but maybe if we quite making life so easy for people that are lazy they would get off their butts and appreciate the ability to have a job. I guarantee during the depression people would have loved to have those jobs.

 

Sounds like the Springfield PD has some issues. Also, sounds like you are making a broad statement about all police, which doesnt encompass how most cities or police departments are run....at least not the two i worked in.

 

 

Lets discuss this more. I agree that we have an illegal problem and that they take American jobs. However, most Americans wont work the fields or other low paying jobs. Why? Because they are low paying. If we paid a decent wage for those jobs, people would work and the cost of those goods would have to rise.....oH NO!

 

YOu talk about these lazy people and the depression. I agree, there are lazy people out there, but I bet if you gave them a good job, they would work. How did we get out of the depression? The government built a ton of stuff and gave people jobs....good jobs. At least we agree on something.

 

 

In fact too many people in this country don't appreciate what they have. It is part of the reason why so many americans are so far in debt. Everybody is so hung up on material possesions and so they end up working so many hours that they don't get to see their family but their kids have all the toys they could possibly want.

 

You are right I am just an evil guy that happens to give thousands of dollars to charity every year. I just want to make sure that this country doesn't get screwed up like so many others in this world.

 

Agreed. I am not saying you are evil it just sounds that way when you say certain people should have their medical needs met and certain other people shouldnt. I dont need to know how much you give away to make you a good person.

 

How does this make any sense. If on average an american spends over 4000 on health care how are you going to increase taxes less than 4000 per person to cover national health care. That seems like some funny math to me. You keep saying that countries with national health care pay less per capita. Again is that out of pocket expense or in taxes. Where do your numbers come from? I am guessing that they come out of the movie. I will not give that blow hard any of my money to go see his movie.

 

You just explained it. I said we pay on average 4k per year. Others with national health care pay around 2K. 4K more than 2K.

 

The reason we would pay less, is that our government would want to pay less and negotiate prices with the pharma and health care companies. This is what the VA does with pharma and they have DRASTICALLY lower prescription prices.

 

Its really not funny math.

 

I would assume that those countries with national health care pay for it through taxes. Ya I said the big no no word, taxes. Buuuuuuutttt, if we are paying around 4K, this would kind of offset. you would see better benefits and less costs for employers. They pay less in health care, make more money, everybody is happy.

 

Those numbers are from the link I posted earlier in this thread, not the movie. Although the movie may have used some of those numbers, but I cannot remember. As I said earlier it is a blog but the information is from a bunch of different studies from all over the place. take a peak, its worth looking at once.

 

I would encourage you to find a free copy somewhere and at least give it a chance. Again as I said previously, the movie is different than those he has produced in the past.

 

I know I won't change your mind so go ahead and vote for the people that can't get anything done. I will vote for the person that I feel is the most honest no matter what side of the isle they sit on.

 

Good. You vote for the most honest person regardless of party? Good for you. How do you determine which POLITICIAN is the most honest? Who you leaning toward this time 'round?

 

 

Also for your information I watch Fox News the news station with the highest ratings in america. I don't listen to the radio. Since you brought up the radio though what happened to Air America. Ohh thats right they went bankrupt. Why did they go bankrupt. My guess is because they had liberals running it with the same theories they have on the economy.

 

We can hardly call Fox News a "news" station now can we? We have Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reily and Brit Hume....three henchmen.

 

Not to mention they have covered the war 1/3 less than every other station. No wonder there is still some people in the country that think things are going well.

 

Not to mention the mislabeling of politicians they dont like as Democrats. I love it.

 

Are we done with this pissing match yet? (laugh)

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There are columnists in the New York times one of the most liberal newspapers in the country that now believe that we are making signifigant progress in the war. I am not saying it has all been roses all the time but that is the nature of war particularly gorilla warfare which is basically what this has become. It was a nasty can of worms to get into but really not much worse than going into Bosnia. Whenever you have two people fighting in the name of Religion it is not going to go well. I am personally opposed to religion. I think far more bad comes from it than good. Religions in general are fundamentally good but the peope practicing the religion twist them in ways to justify their means. Whether it is people coming to your door to try and convert you or people convincing little kids that strapping bombs to their body is the greatest thing that they can do.

 

I am not saying that there are not conservatives on fox news but they regularly bring on Democrats also. In fact there are democrats that cohost some of the programs. I find this funny because how many conservatives are there on any of the news channels. Zero. The war is covered quite a bit on fox news. I don't watch all the news stations as much so I cannot comment on exactly how much news coverage it gets on them but I do turn them on occasionally. How much do you watch fox news? I am guessing you don't but you can read about it on those liberal blogs.

 

I believe we should institute a flat income tax but the biggest benefit is not in the tax itself but in its simplification of the system. We could almost completely do away with the IRS which I have never looked up the numbers but I am guessing they take a signifigant chunk out of the budget. I am not personally really opposed to the idea of universal health care but I know how it would end up and that is the problem. It would be an idealistic way of doing things that may work for 4 months well but then there will be complaints filed about something then we will have to have a department to handle that and then an oversite commitee to make sure they are doing their job and then someone to look over them. The politicians always have to find away to get their fingers in the pie. The only way to get away from this is to privatize more things. Not only would the plan to privatize social security taken the ability for the government to screw it up more but if it would have been handled in a mutual fund type manner it would have really given a boost to the economy.

 

As far as jails keep those people in a cell all by themselves for their sentence. The only people they should get to talk to are psychatrists and job training people. Better yet they could get closed circuit feeds in their room with nothing but training on them. No violence this way. A pretty miserable way to serve time I would say but this would probably reduce the amount of repeat offenders because many of them could earn degrees while they are in jail and then go out and get good jobs. I have been in half a dozen correctional facilities when I used to work on x-ray equipment. Just not that rough. I mean when I punish my daughter I don't tell her to go to her room but you can watch TV and play with your toys. I mean we let people out of Guantanamo Bay that we new were terrorists and then they go back and fulfil their missions as suicide bombers.

 

As far as the depression and the jobs available the jobs that were available while they may have paid a decent wage were often times very dangerous. I would never give someone who is not motivated enough to go out and work a good job just so they have one. This the land of opportunities not of handouts you have to work hard to get ahead in life and far too many people aren't willing to do that. What was that movie with Will Smith where he became a stock broker. If I am not mistaken that was based on a real person. That is the kind of sacrifice and drive that should be rewarded. You have to be willing to risk it all and put yourself out there to do it but it can be done.

 

There are reasons why people have less money, less savings, and more debt than when you were born. The biggest reason for this is because people are all about me, me me where as previous generations thought about leaving a legacy behind for future generations. People have to have things now. We are an immediate gratification society we waste lots of money. The other reason would be much bigger government. The government grows faster than those who support it. Everytime a conservative president takes office they cut taxes which in the short term leads to a higher deficit but in the long term leads to a net gain. We can argue about government for a long time but no signifigant changes will be made. Just think about how much money is being thrown at the presidential race. Think of all the good that could actually be done with that money but it is wasted. That is the name of the government game waste but that wasted money goes into the pockets of the people that win the races so it will always continue this way. He or She who makes the rules is very likely to cut their own throat.

 

As far as who I would vote for in the election it would be John McCain. He may not be completely honest but is definately the most honest canidate. I mean the guy supports the war which is a pretty unpopular stance in the country right now but in line with his party. Then goes and supports the immigration bill which was political suicide in his party. You can usually tell the honest politician because nobody likes them. I mean Mitt Romney is full of it on most of his views. He changes depending on who he is talking to. Pretty much the same with the other Republicans. I can't say anything nice for most of the Dems. I mean this is how the Clintons get elected. They poll then they way the popular opinion versus that of the people that are footing the bill for their campaign and play the odds. I mean Bill Clinton is completely full of it any time words are coming out of his mouth. Baraka Obama is trying to play the I didn't vote for the war card all the way to the white house when the only reason he didn't was because he wasn't around to yet. John Edwards now really do we think that anyone that lives in a mansion really gives a crap about poor people. If he did maybe he would quit wasting so much money and actually do something. Joseph Biden seems to be the most honest one I have seen so far but I haven't heard much from him. The person that I would like to see run as kind of a Democrat would be Joe Liebermann. That is a guy that shoots straight but like I said you don't win elections by telling the truth. You win elections by convincing the majority of the voting public that you are exactly what they are looking for.

 

This is why I am a bush supporter. He is a good old southern boy that doesn't mince words. He does what he feels is right and in the best interest of the country regardless of what people think of him. I know you are going to say that he lied about the Iraq war. Which is BS. He operated on the current intellegence which Hillary Clinton was also more than a vocal advocate of at the time. It was bad intellegence because Saddam wanted Iran to believe that he was much more capable than he was. I mean what are you going to do. We tried to allow UN weapons inspectors to do their jobs but he kept thwarting their efforts to verify what weapons he had. We kept warning him we had to act or else we would have never had any respect in the world anymore. It is the reason why we will eventually have to go into Iran. The idiot in charge of that nation is playing a game of brinksmanship that we cannot afford to string out until a point in time that he actually has the weapons that he is trying to produce. He will without a doubt use the nuclear technology or pass it along to some religious crazies that will.

 

I just find it incredibly funny that if I express my point of view based on all of the information I obtain. I am just spewing right wing propoganda but your spewing of left wing stuff is your opinion.

 

Well I guess I will end with immigration. I am not saying that rounding up all the illegal aliens will be easy or cheap in the short term but it will pay for itself in the long term. Eventually it will be easier and easier. I mean this state has ID card programs, Bank of America is offering banking to illegal immigrants, the very things that enable them to milk this country for benefits without paying taxes are the things that we can use to round them up and send them back. Definately any illegal immigrant that gets drug in by the police for violating another law should be immediately without question deported. There are more and more incidents of people that are here illegally that have been hauled into court repeatedly for breaking the law and then they get to continue to live here. They then really have no respect for our legal system because they don't suffer any real punishment for it so why should they stop. Lots of people die every year trying to come to this country because they know that once they are here more than likely they will get to live here forever. While this is a great goal there are ways to get here without violating the laws and maybe they should take a little more time to follow the law then giving us the finger and saying that there is nothing we are going to do about it. One of the things that people were fighting for in the immigration bill was the ability to vote. This would be great for them because in many areas they could take over the government. You have to look at the bad side of situations also. I think many democrats look at things on the glass half full side and don't think about the long term. Whether it be health care reform or the war you have to think fully about what will actually happen not the idealized outcome.

 

I am not trying to get in a pissing contest with you but you were the one that started attacking people with my views and I personally think that maybe you could be served by taking in some of the information instead of blindly believing every fact they spew forth on those blogs. Like I said numbers can be made to say whatever someone wants and it is usually the people that are spewing forth the most numbers that think they have something to prove. It is all about the bottom line Money.

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Well I guess I will end with immigration. I am not saying that rounding up all the illegal aliens will be easy or cheap in the short term but it will pay for itself in the long term. Eventually it will be easier and easier. I mean this state has ID card programs, Bank of America is offering banking to illegal immigrants, the very things that enable them to milk this country for benefits without paying taxes are the things that we can use to round them up and send them back. Definately any illegal immigrant that gets drug in by the police for violating another law should be immediately without question deported. There are more and more incidents of people that are here illegally that have been hauled into court repeatedly for breaking the law and then they get to continue to live here. They then really have no respect for our legal system because they don't suffer any real punishment for it so why should they stop. Lots of people die every year trying to come to this country because they know that once they are here more than likely they will get to live here forever. While this is a great goal there are ways to get here without violating the laws and maybe they should take a little more time to follow the law then giving us the finger and saying that there is nothing we are going to do about it. One of the things that people were fighting for in the immigration bill was the ability to vote. This would be great for them because in many areas they could take over the government. You have to look at the bad side of situations also. I think many democrats look at things on the glass half full side and don't think about the long term. Whether it be health care reform or the war you have to think fully about what will actually happen not the idealized outcome.

 

Why "round them up"? Make them go home on their own. And here is how you do it. Companies get to write off wages as a buisness expense. So force companies to actually verify the information that they are required to collect. If the information doesn't match, the name and number in the Social Security Administration data base, you can't hire the person, and any wages you pay them can't be used as a deduction when filing taxed. Also the states have to stop providing services to those who can't verify they are here legally. ALL SERVICES, except true emercency medical care. If you go to ER because you have the flu, you are responcible for it. If you go because you just crushed your hand, that is an emercency.

 

Trust me, in a year or two, they will all be back in thier home land or moved on to another country. I don't just mean "Mexican's". There are illegals here from many, many different countries, so I am not picking on anyone group of people.

 

And the best thing about doing it this way, is it doesn't cost taxpayers much.

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Well I guess I will end with immigration. I am not saying that rounding up all the illegal aliens will be easy or cheap in the short term but it will pay for itself in the long term. Eventually it will be easier and easier. I mean this state has ID card programs, Bank of America is offering banking to illegal immigrants, the very things that enable them to milk this country for benefits without paying taxes are the things that we can use to round them up and send them back. Definately any illegal .

 

I do want to address this... because i work for Bank of America and I can say that this is a load of crap. any foreign national programs we do are for legal people here in the US on business etc... most all of them are sponsered by their work and have valid US identification. The ones that are not sponsered still have valid Visa's and documentation that they are legal. you have to have a SS# to get any account.

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I do want to address this... because i work for Bank of America and I can say that this is a load of crap. any foreign national programs we do are for legal people here in the US on business etc... most all of them are sponsered by their work and have valid US identification. The ones that are not sponsered still have valid Visa's and documentation that they are legal. you have to have a SS# to get any account.

 

So you are saying that Bank of America verifies the authenticity of all documents before they open an account or cash a check for individuals? Are you also saying that they only accept ID from states that checks the legality of the person who gets it before the ID is issued?

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(backtotopic)

 

I have not seen the movie, but I have seen and read lots of reaction. Both the typical I won't see MM crap, which is not very helpful and the one from people who have actually seen it. Interestingly while this thread seems to ahve taken a "partisan" turn, I have talked with people from both sides of the blue/red line who have found something worth discussing in that movie. So the fact that it does create a discussion and generate passion indicates to me that there is something worth about that movie, would it be even just to use at cocktail parties.

 

Whether you like MM or not is irrelevant here. The healthcare system is though. I have read the entire thread and I am amazed at so much passion leading to division. Lots of inacuracy used to build the division even deeper. Lots of myths perpetuated. Not much interest in looking at what we need to do as people to make this work. Its obvious it won't happen from the top if the masses just let it happen and spend more time at each others throat than trying to make it work. Keeping this counrty divided has been the best success story of the leaders of this country to continue laughing at us watching us building thicker and thicker walls between each others based on meaningless little details. Missing the big picture.

 

I come from France, a Democracy (in the true definition of the word). We have socialized medicine over there, yes we do pay higher taxes for it. And I know the word "socialized" is frightening for some people. But for now just thing of that word as meaning (open to everyone). We do not have the most expensive equipment in the world in every hospital, but we do have the top of the line to achieve meaningfull procedures and save life. We are pioneer and leaders in Cardiology and heart disease (the number one killer in the Western world), and many other disorders. Our administartive cost is minimum because everyone that comes for treatment is elligible so we do not need a special Insurance checking "administration" to make sure the care will be covered (by the way that cost in the US is estimated to represent 30% of your bill-just to keep in mind..). When I go to the Dr. I actually go to the Dr. office, not a hospital or a clinic, a real office where he or she greets me and spend the visit with me evaluating the situation. I do not get a random Dr. each time, I do get MY Dr. every visit and we know each other. She actually has known me since I was 2 year old and she knows exactly what has been wrong with me since then. If she thinks she can treat me she tells me what is wrong, and ask me to call her within a week or so if this involves treatment. If she cannot take care of my ailment she refers me to a colleague, someone she trusts and knows will be the best to adress the issue. I do not live in a small country town, I live in the city of lights with some other 10 million or so "Freedom People".

 

My Dr. gets visits from big Pharma to her office , but what does she care, the government only reimbursed the generic prescriptions, she won't get a cut from it, she just cares I take the one that will do the job. It is true that when I go to some of the hospitals they do not look like much, at least not like Bill Gates just invested 300 Million $ in them. But because they are modest in appearance , they can spend more $$ on the contents and the quality of the contents. And inside they do look quite modern indeed. Because it is socialized, it means that whatever your needs or whatever your treatment is, if it is affecting your health it will be covered. You won't have to decide between getting your medication or your food stamp. I don't know what a Co-Pay means. Now my story, could be told the same way by about every person leaving overthere and needing healthcare. It is not an exception it is the norm. My very good friends do live in Vancouver BC (Canada), what is fascinating is that their story is actually very similar to the one I just told. The last thing they would want would be to have to be hospitalized in the US. Because a free night in the ER in Vancouver, costs $5,000 on this side of the border. Now before criticizing "socialize" medicine, can you say the same about your health care? I did not say it was a perfect system, it does cost a lot (but honestly, its worth it.) but it does not cost as much as what I have to pay here and I don't think my Dr. does even know I exist.

 

I am obviously here and I am not complaining about being here. I love it here, well I love certain things here to be truely honest. I love the ideology. The idea that everything is possible. The immense beauty of preserved nature in this incredible land, and the strong will of people to preserve nature and make a difference in their environment. That's why I joined this club, to participate in reef acticities that would promote saving the reef and not deplete it. I believe that the people on this site, who have fallen in love with their reef do have this passion within. The passion of conservacy, of preventing bad things from happening and taking action to limit our destructive impact on nature. The way we treat each other as humans and our will to make this a better place will affect everything we touch. If we can put aside our political believes and look at what we could achieve by putting our heads and energy together, the true strength of this country would be phenomenal.

 

As far it goes today, this great country that used to be number one in the world for many things is now starting to crumble at too many levels. Health care, Research, Science, Environment/pollution, Trust...the list keeps getting longer. And don't look at the US press to find that out (you could but that way you won't think its either neo conservative or Far left) look at the international press. See what others see and what others say.

 

If the people do not understand that the elitist capitalism that has been enforced here is just destroying all the fertile ground on which this country once rose to the top, we will continue toward worse and mediocrity. There is a way to keep a democratic capitalist system thriving as long as you don't suffocate it. The US have become the joke around the world when it comes to healthcare. Yes 37th in the world, that is absolutely the international ranking. Is it acceptable? How is it possible that such a great country, such a powerful and rich country could be so far behind? That is really the question? How did it happen and what can we do about it? The issues cannot really be money can it?. I mean if poor countries like France can pull it off, what is stopping the US from doing better than that?

 

So what is missing...? Maybe if everyone would start talking to each other in our communities instead of AT each other we could remove the layers of dirt masking the real problem and adress it as a nation and not let the Millionaires running for Office decide for us. This is a great place to start, but who is willing to open their eyes and talk not bark! Is it time to think about having a real democracy and truely understand what one is?

 

But maybe I said too much...If you do not hear from me ever again, go look for me in Guantanamo Bay...(scary)

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Wow! A heated debate!!:D

 

Just my two cents... The prison thing... In 1970, 16.3% of all Federal incarcerations were on drug-related charges. In 2002, it was 54.7%. More than HALF the people in prison are there because of our Medieval drug laws. Paroling violent criminals is due, in part, on limited space in prisons. I say, legalize the drugs (making it unavailable to kids, like tobacco and alcohol) and that allows us to keep violent criminals in prison for much longer. They're a far greater threat to our society than the pot-head next door.

 

Having laws to control drugs because of an irresponsible minority that go overboard is like outlawing gambling/lottery because of a tiny percentage of people can't control themselves. You don't make laws for the many based on the weaknesses of a very few.

 

That's how you end up with hierocracies. That's how you end up making it IMPOSSIBLE for normal sick people to get freakin' cold medicine because of crazed meth heads. If they could get it cheaply, legally elsewhere, then I'd be able to go get my cold medicine when I feel like hell.

 

I don't do any of these kinds of drugs, but I don't care if other people do, so long as they don't commit crimes trying to do it (which is, btw, because of the drugs being illegal and hard to access; you eliminate most of that crime by making it legal and monitoring it like we now monitor alcohol and tobacco). Basically, I feel that it's none of my business what other people do with their bodies. And I wish more folks felt that way, instead of this 'judgmental father' attitude that some Americans seem to have. They want no laws regarding taxation or corporate responsibility but endless slews of laws about what we do with or put into or remove from our bodies. Seems a little misdirected to me, since moral law is a slippery slope.

 

Anyway, I'd rather revert my tax money to other projects and do away with the DEA altogether. In 2005, DEA funding was $40.7 BILLION. That's a ridiculous amt of money to sink into a lost battle--kinda like the cost of this war in Iraq: http://www.nationalpriorities.org/Cost-of-War/Cost-of-War-3.html (nutty) Mine is a pipe-dream though; they'll never do away with the DEA because it employs more than 800 people in 17 offices in six states. That'd be a lot of unemployed ex-government officials, and the government isn't likely to fire itself. At least they have total job security, since they'll never put a dent in the drug trade.

 

In fact, thanks to our "liberation" of Afghanistan, they're now back in full swing, pumping out opium to feed the world's heroine demand...which helps employ more DEA... Odd how that cycle works. Opium production jumped 60% in 2006: http://www.dpna.org/drugarticles/12afghanistan_opium.htm

 

If private corporations mishandled their money the way the US government does, they'd be a bankrupt disaster in less than a year.

 

The US doesn't think with their brains.. They 'think' with some kind of bizarre hyper-judgmental need to control everyone's personal lives. We put billions into stupid lost causes and choose to neglect health care, education, infrastructure maintenance (for example: that bridge into Minneapolis), and other more vital causes.

 

I don't really understand that approach to life and law, but that's just me.

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Wow! A heated debate!!:D

 

Just my two cents... The prison thing... In 1970, 16.3% of all Federal incarcerations were on drug-related charges. In 2002, it was 54.7%. More than HALF the people in prison are there because of our Medieval drug laws. Paroling violent criminals is due, in part, on limited space in prisons. I say, legalize the drugs (making it unavailable to kids, like tobacco and alcohol) and that allows us to keep violent criminals in prison for much longer. They're a far greater threat to our society than the pot-head next door.

 

Having laws to control drugs because of an irresponsible minority that go overboard is like outlawing gambling/lottery because of a tiny percentage of people can't control themselves. You don't make laws for the many based on the weaknesses of a very few.

 

That's how you end up with hierocracies. That's how you end up making it IMPOSSIBLE for normal sick people to get freakin' cold medicine because of crazed meth heads. If they could get it cheaply, legally elsewhere, then I'd be able to go get my cold medicine when I feel like hell.

 

I don't do any of these kinds of drugs, but I don't care if other people do, so long as they don't commit crimes trying to do it (which is, btw, because of the drugs being illegal and hard to access; you eliminate most of that crime by making it legal and monitoring it like we now monitor alcohol and tobacco). Basically, I feel that it's none of my business what other people do with their bodies. And I wish more folks felt that way, instead of this 'judgmental father' attitude that some Americans seem to have. They want no laws regarding taxation or corporate responsibility but endless slews of laws about what we do with or put into or remove from our bodies. Seems a little misdirected to me, since moral law is a slippery slope.

 

Anyway, I'd rather revert my tax money to other projects and do away with the DEA altogether. In 2005, DEA funding was $40.7 BILLION. That's a ridiculous amt of money to sink into a lost battle--kinda like the cost of this war in Iraq: http://www.nationalpriorities.org/Cost-of-War/Cost-of-War-3.html (nutty) Mine is a pipe-dream though; they'll never do away with the DEA because it employs more than 800 people in 17 offices in six states. That'd be a lot of unemployed ex-government officials, and the government isn't likely to fire itself. At least they have total job security, since they'll never put a dent in the drug trade.

 

In fact, thanks to our "liberation" of Afghanistan, they're now back in full swing, pumping out opium to feed the world's heroine demand...which helps employ more DEA... Odd how that cycle works. Opium production jumped 60% in 2006: http://www.dpna.org/drugarticles/12afghanistan_opium.htm

 

If private corporations mishandled their money the way the US government does, they'd be a bankrupt disaster in less than a year.

 

The US doesn't think with their brains.. They 'think' with some kind of bizarre hyper-judgmental need to control everyone's personal lives. We put billions into stupid lost causes and choose to neglect health care, education, infrastructure maintenance (for example: that bridge into Minneapolis), and other more vital causes.

 

I don't really understand that approach to life and law, but that's just me.

 

In a ideal world, legalizing all drugs would be great and let people destroy themselves...The problem is that these drugs make people commit crimes and do other horrible things. Amsterdam has taken this approach and that country in beyond repair. Legalizing drugs is not the answer to health care or any other tax problem, jail problem of governmental problem.

 

Like stated above, I agree that jails are way to easy on people, like someone said, when you send a child to their room, do you let them play and watch TV? No. Why? because it teaches them nothing!!!! You can argue rehabilitation all you want, but this theory has not proved to work, the same people commit crimes over and over again, no matter what...They do this because they know, they will not get in to much trouble and crime pays way better then most jobs ever will... If we cut drug dealers hands off, when they were caught trafficking drugs, we would have alot less drug dealers (yes this is to the extreme but you get my point). To some people, breaking into a house and stealing 20k worth of stuff is worth the risk of going to jail for 30 days...

 

As someone else stated above, this land is not the land of Handouts, which people seem to think it should be. This is the land of opportunity, but you have to work for that opportunity. Our whole welfare system is like the rich spoiled kid who's parents give it everything and do not make them work for anything. The child learns that it can sit on it's *** and do nothing and it will be taken care of, so why attempt to work?

 

I agree with what bluecheese said...He made many valid points and I think is the best person to chime in as of yet, since he has lived in both places and experienced both first hand. This is my assumption I am going to talk about and if I am wrong Phillippe, please correct me...He came to this country cause of its greatness (yes we have short comings as well), when he came here, he knew he would have work to get any place in this country and I am sure that is what he has done...

 

Sorry, lazy people piss me off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If they want to be lazy then let them, but they should get nothing from us...

 

As for illegals...Lets treat our southern illegal friends like they treat illegals...We will follow the same rules as they treat people who try to come to their country illegally...Trust me it is one of the most strict immigration laws on any continent...

 

Our health care needs major reform and we need to figure this out... I will wait until this movie is on TV, because I will not pay and give MM, any of my money, because is a crack pot, not for being liberal of left, but because he is to the extreme and over exaggerates everything he does...This movies is not a documentary, it is a hollywood movie to press his beliefs...

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So you are saying that Bank of America verifies the authenticity of all documents before they open an account or cash a check for individuals? Are you also saying that they only accept ID from states that checks the legality of the person who gets it before the ID is issued?

 

to put it short... Yes, everything is verified based on federal law and then the banks own policies which are stricter in some cases. you should see the hours of training everyone takes every year. As with any bank, if the ID is a fake and is done well there is no absolute guarantee that it will get caught... but then that is a problem at all banks...

 

outlaw lobbiests and maybe our government might be able to make headway on this issue... until then we are stuck

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Following the law, doesn't mean you are doing what is best for people. It is legal to open an account for someone with a Matricula Counselar. And incase anyone reading this aren't aware, if you are legal, you don't need one of those. And don't tell me that BofA doesn't accept them, I know they do, at least here in Vancouver.

 

Doran

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I just want to say this has been a really great thread. There are lots of people here that are passionate about improving our country, although different ideas about how to do so. Isnt that a great thing?

 

I agree with some people here and totally disagree with others, but I am thankful that we are having this conversation. It gives me hope that we can move in a positive direction.

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