Peng Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 Hi I know there are tons of people here who successfully treated fishes with cuppramine for ich... I have had no success and in the past they all died during the treatment. I have a PBT that has ich. It has been living in my aquarium for about half a year and the ich comes and goes. Usually several dots on it's face. Other fishes and tangs don't seem to get it. Is it worthwhile to get all fishes (4) out and put them into an aquarium with cuppramine? I have an empty 60 gallon cube, but it's not drilled and I don't have any extra skimmer for that tank. I can pull out a power head and a hang-on-glass filter for it but I'm not sure if this is gonna work... Another big big issue is that I have a mandarin goby and a cleaner shrimp. I dont know if ich will stay with the shrimp. And I don't know how mandarin can survive without its pods... But I do want to make my tank ich free. I didn't use any Cu test before. I think I need to buy one if I was gonna do the treatment this time... But I don't really know... I do want to see my PBT swimming free with ich, but I don't want to lose it... It came with lots of ich and bony dying face and I tried a lot and it got so fat now... Would appreciate some help from you guys thanks 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandinga Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 This is definitely a complex answer, I'll address one part: Treating a PBT alone will not rid the main tank of ich. Ich has hany places to hide and live, even without the PBT. PBT are best left to MONSTER tanks, or the ocean IMO. Made the same mistake with a PBT... After observation of PBT in the wild, I have concluded they need open swimming space to breathe,they don't do well confined...and are almost constantly stressed to breathe. Some can adapt, but the vast majority do not. Similar species have similar problems respirating correctly, Powder Browns, Achilles, and others with that same demeanor...most having similar survival rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peng Posted December 28, 2014 Author Share Posted December 28, 2014 This is definitely a complex answer, I'll address one part: Treating a PBT alone will not rid the main tank of ich. Ich has hany places to hide and live, even without the PBT. PBT are best left to MONSTER tanks, or the ocean IMO. Made the same mistake with a PBT... After observation of PBT in the wild, I have concluded they need open swimming space to breathe,they don't do well confined...and are almost constantly stressed to breathe. Some can adapt, but the vast majority do not. Similar species have similar problems respirating correctly, Powder Browns, Achilles, and others with that same demeanor...most having similar survival rates. Thanks for the reply. I will treat them all if I do... But yeah it's like a really tricky question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsonmfg Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 There are many opinions on Ich, personally I think if the fish is eating leave him be, he'll either die or get over it and live to swim another day. Usually they get over it. I've killed many more fish in QT and others stressing all the animals out chasing them around a tank only to make a bad situation worse by trying to treat a problem fish. I have yet to see any research that has proven letting a tank run fallow and QT'ing every fish for X amount of time will make your reef tank Ich free... I honestly think that's a load of BS. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 It's my OPINION and personal EXPERIENCE that if you have an ich problem so bad that you are considering treating with medication, you have problems that need to be resolved prior to any treatment. Healthy fish don't get ich. Fix the first part and the second will fix itself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higher Thinking Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 There are many opinions on Ich, personally I think if the fish is eating leave him be, he'll either die or get over it and live to swim another day. Usually they get over it. I've killed many more fish in QT and others stressing all the animals out chasing them around a tank only to make a bad situation worse by trying to treat a problem fish. I have yet to see any research that has proven letting a tank run fallow and QT'ing every fish for X amount of time will make your reef tank Ich free... I honestly think that's a load of BS. Science! https://www.dropbox.com/s/4gfihmq2rwkgs4v/Ich%20infections.pdf?dl=0 Check the first paragraph of the first subsection. It really is scientifically shown. Not just here, but other articles as well. Parasites need hosts to survive. With the correct conditions, the parasite will go through each life stage and if it doesn't find a host it will die. Bill! Bill! Bill! Bill! (Bill Nye reference, anyone?)[emoji2] 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peng Posted December 28, 2014 Author Share Posted December 28, 2014 It's my OPINION and personal EXPERIENCE that if you have an ich problem so bad that you are considering treating with medication, you have problems that need to be resolved prior to any treatment. Healthy fish don't get ich. Fix the first part and the second will fix itself. Hi Micah I don't have a bad ich problem. Only PBT gets it and it comes and goes. Usually several dots, when it chases around with yellow tang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peng Posted December 28, 2014 Author Share Posted December 28, 2014 It's my OPINION and personal EXPERIENCE that if you have an ich problem so bad that you are considering treating with medication, you have problems that need to be resolved prior to any treatment. Healthy fish don't get ich. Fix the first part and the second will fix itself.I know you've treated it with success so I wonder how do you think if I treat them with Cupramine. I use to follow the instructions on other fishes and they would just get killed. I think this time I'll use a test kit to monitor. But I'be heard that mandarine won't survive it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 I have never treated ich. Only velvet. Like I hinted at above, your fish is stressed about something. Could be the ich, but probably something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 PBT and tangs like Achilles are just super prone to ich unfortunately. I had an Achilles in my 400 gallon display for several years and ich would come and go on him and he was fat and healthy, sold him when my tank was broken down. If you had had the fish for 6 months and he is fine except for the ich IMO dont worry about it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bicyclebill Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 (edited) I have had good success with tropical science marine max through the years when one of my tangs would get ich. Totally reef safe. It might be complete bs, but it has worked ime. Edited December 28, 2014 by Bicyclebill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peng Posted December 28, 2014 Author Share Posted December 28, 2014 PBT and tangs like Achilles are just super prone to ich unfortunately. I had an Achilles in my 400 gallon display for several years and ich would come and go on him and he was fat and healthy, sold him when my tank was broken down. If you had had the fish for 6 months and he is fine except for the ich IMO dont worry about it.That is really true. The worst thing that can happen is that when I add cupramine there is a chance it will die during treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsonmfg Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 Science! https://www.dropbox.com/s/4gfihmq2rwkgs4v/Ich%20infections.pdf?dl=0 Check the first paragraph of the first subsection. It really is scientifically shown. Not just here, but other articles as well. Parasites need hosts to survive. With the correct conditions, the parasite will go through each life stage and if it doesn't find a host it will die. Bill! Bill! Bill! Bill! (Bill Nye reference, anyone?)[emoji2] While I haven't seen that one in particular there are studies out there for EVERYTHING, wait till you have a kid! There's enough studies out there to make you insane and most of them are either incomplete or based on very short term experiments or completely flawed. It's hard to argue with people who are clearly smarter than myself on the subject but I'd love to direct an experiment using the PBT especially. If you can get one to live through a long QT and introduce it to a reef that's been ran fallow for X amount of time and then start to introduce stress I can almost promise you an outbreak. But hey what do I know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pledosophy Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 IMO I think the problem with ich is that the anecdotal evidence is flawed, repeated, and the the misinformation is said so often it is thought to be true. Then when it doesn't work, people blame the science. Ich is a widely discussed topic but the information I see most often wrongly repeated is the life cycle is 6 weeks, when studies show it to be up to 11. I realize there are studies for everything,NAND many conflict, and we are left to try and judge the merit of each author. That said I'd bet the ranch if you had a pbt with no ich and put it in a display with no ich that the pbt would not get ich. Ich is an animal, it doesn't show up outta no where. JMO Unless your going to take all of the fish out for 12 weeks + and treat there in no use taking one out IMO. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsonmfg Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 (edited) IMO I think the problem with ich is that the anecdotal evidence is flawed, repeated, and the the misinformation is said so often it is thought to be true. Then when it doesn't work, people blame the science. Ich is a widely discussed topic but the information I see most often wrongly repeated is the life cycle is 6 weeks, when studies show it to be up to 11. I realize there are studies for everything,NAND many conflict, and we are left to try and judge the merit of each author. That said I'd bet the ranch if you had a pbt with no ich and put it in a display with no ich that the pbt would not get ich. Ich is an animal, it doesn't show up outta no where. JMO Unless your going to take all of the fish out for 12 weeks + and treat there in no use taking one out IMO. HTH I'll give you $500 if you can keep a PBT in a QT with a therapeutic level of copper for 12+ weeks! Let alone most any reef fish for that matter! Edited December 28, 2014 by Arsonmfg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bicyclebill Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 I'll give you $500 if you can keep a PBT in a QT with a therapeutic level of copper for 12+ weeks! Let alone most any reef fish for that matter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger334 Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 I think this has been covered pretty well. IMO it's immunity. Hence why some fish get it and others may not. Do whatever you can to improve Redox of the tank and that will help the fish naturally fight off the disease. A UV sterilizer could also be considered to improve immunity and keep the Ich out of the water column. If it were my fish, I would try a reef safe treatment fish or just try to improve immunity to help the little guy fight it off long-term. http://americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Ich.html#marine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bicyclebill Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 (edited) I'll give you $500 if you can keep a PBT in a QT with a therapeutic level of copper for 12+ weeks! Let alone most any reef fish for that matter! Ooh, that's a challenge with a big enough reward it could be worth doing just because! I'm with Chris on this. Question: what's going on with ich during the periods that no fish have it? If it has a 12 week life cycle, and your fish are all healthy for say 26 weeks, then how is it still in your tank? Edited December 28, 2014 by Bicyclebill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandinga Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 PBT and tangs like Achilles are just super prone to ich unfortunately. +1,050,456 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peng Posted December 28, 2014 Author Share Posted December 28, 2014 Ooh, that's a challenge with a big enough reward it could be worth doing just because! I'm with Chris on this. Question: what's going on with ich during the periods that no fish have it? If it has a 12 week life cycle, and your fish are all healthy for say 26 weeks, then how is it still in your tank?Thinking of using copper on tangs/Angels just makes me pretty worried. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pledosophy Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 I'll give you $500 if you can keep a PBT in a QT with a therapeutic level of copper for 12+ weeks! Let alone most any reef fish for that matter! Do you think you would need to keep the fish in copper the whole 12 weeks to rid it of ich? I think the cupramine treatment is only 2 weeks or so. 2 weeks of copper, 10 weeks of QT in a nice happy tank. I've never used copper myself. I can't speak much to it. When QTing fish I have done hypo, and that worked well for me. My point on the 12 weeks was that is how long the display would need to be fallow of fish before it was cleared of ich. Not that the fish should be treated with copper for that long. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pledosophy Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 Ooh, that's a challenge with a big enough reward it could be worth doing just because! I'm with Chris on this. Question: what's going on with ich during the periods that no fish have it? If it has a 12 week life cycle, and your fish are all healthy for say 26 weeks, then how is it still in your tank? Some fish has it. It might not be visible but if ICH is in a system, a fish has it. ICH can also feed off of other parasites as well, so multiple strains of ICH can cause the parasite to live longer then a single strain would. ICH is an animal, it doesn't magically appear. It has to be put in the tank, for it to be in the tank. There is no way around it. If you take a fish without ICH and put it in a tank that has no ICH in the system the fish will not get ICH. Peng- have you read about hyposalinity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peng Posted December 28, 2014 Author Share Posted December 28, 2014 Some fish has it. It might not be visible but if ICH is in a system, a fish has it. ICH can also feed off of other parasites as well, so multiple strains of ICH can cause the parasite to live longer then a single strain would. ICH is an animal, it doesn't magically appear. It has to be put in the tank, for it to be in the tank. There is no way around it. If you take a fish without ICH and put it in a tank that has no ICH in the system the fish will not get ICH. Peng- have you read about hyposalinity? Yes I did. Both hypo and copper seem to be very upsetting for tangs, especially for powder blue. I think I may try using Cupramine, monitor closely, and see how it does. If it's not doing good I'll stop the treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsonmfg Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 Some fish has it. It might not be visible but if ICH is in a system, a fish has it. ICH can also feed off of other parasites as well, so multiple strains of ICH can cause the parasite to live longer then a single strain would. ICH is an animal, it doesn't magically appear. It has to be put in the tank, for it to be in the tank. There is no way around it. If you take a fish without ICH and put it in a tank that has no ICH in the system the fish will not get ICH. Peng- have you read about hyposalinity? I would think so if we can say that it's life cycle without a host is 12 weeks then I would think that a truly acceptable term would be 12 weeks to consider a fish 100% parasite free. I honestly believe that all of our fish are hosting parasites and that when they're stressed or sick we see an outbreak. Also we need to remember that what were seeing isn't the actual parasite itself but marks from the parasite doing damage to the fish. This is always an interesting discussion... I'd be interested to see a study done on the life cycle of Ich when treated with copper on a host animal. I don't believe one has been done. Either way as Mike said, Achilles PBT are both extremely susceptible tangs when it comes to Ich. Not many people have long term success with either fish. Mike's Achilles was amazing, they don't get much better than that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsonmfg Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 Ooh, that's a challenge with a big enough reward it could be worth doing just because! I'm with Chris on this. Question: what's going on with ich during the periods that no fish have it? If it has a 12 week life cycle, and your fish are all healthy for say 26 weeks, then how is it still in your tank? Even at a wholesale cost I think you'd run through about $500 in fish just to MAYBE get one that would withstand 12 weeks of copper so the odds are definitely on my side Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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