QT Tank Questions

[Re_Run]

the reason for no LR hypo kills off all the good things... (with out going it to heavy detail please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

[Re_Run]

THIS NOT MINE GIVING CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE just read it! this should be a sticky.. required read for anyone in the Hobby

 

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f15/marine-ich-myths-facts-27003/

 

Marine Ich - Myths and Facts

Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans)

 

One of the marine aquarist’s devils. So many articles have been written about it. Many are long or are in multiple parts. A lot is known about this marine fish disease because of the many $$$ put into research by the fish farming and aquaculture industries. First discovered (or the better word is 'noticed') in the 1800's and later more understood in the 1900's, we’ve learned about all there is to know about this parasite by the 2000's.

 

I don’t want to write a long post on Marine Ich (MI) but the reader, in as brief of space as possible, should know some truths. The aquarist 'sees something' and then 'guesses' as to what it means and thus starts another round of rumors. It's almost a type of voodoo. It's easier to listen to a rumor of a short absolute statement then it is to read and understand the results of decades of studies and experiments. It is easier to try and take shortcuts with this disease by believing the parasite to be able or capable to do things or die from things it just can't, then it is to do the work to kill it, control it, or prevent it by the means that are known to work.

 

It's time to separate out the rumors from the facts and the subjective observations (which start rumors) from actual scientific studies. In bullet form, here’s what is known:

 

 

Life and Visuals:

 

1, The parasite has several ‘stages’ in its life cycle. Cyst in aquarium (usually on substrate, decoration, wall, equipment, or rock) ruptures into free-swimming parasites that burrow into fish, grow into a visible white nodule that is ‘pregnant’ with more parasites, that usually falls off the fish to form a cyst that releases more free-swimming parasites and starts the cycle over again.

 

2. Only time a human can see this parasite with the naked eye is when it is ‘pregnant’ on the fish and has formed a white nodule. (The white spot is about the size of a grain of table salt or sugar). [NOT ALL WHITE SPOTS MEAN MARINE ICH].

 

3. Parasites that have just burrowed into the fish are not visible until 2.

 

4. Cycle can be completed in less than 7 days, but usually within 24 days BUT can go as long as 72 days. Literature usually quotes ‘average’ number of days. 72 days is rare; 60 days usually encompasses more than 99.9% of the observations and research.

 

5. This is not the same as the freshwater disease, Ich (Ichthyophthirius multifilis) but it was named after it?! This leads freshwater aquarists to thinking the wrong things about Marine Ich, adding to the myths and rumors.

 

6. MI is not very sensitive to temperature changes. That is, increasing the temperature does not significantly decrease the life cycle time. This is not true with Freshwater Ich (which is where this rumor of raising the temperature on a marine aquarium with MI comes from).

 

7. MI can live and reproduce in temperatures as low as 50F and as high as 90F. Thus temperatures that would kill MI would first kill or severely stress most tropical marine fishes.

 

8. Spots appear then disappear as MI goes through its cycle. Remember 2. This 'disappearing act' is what leads uninformed aquarists to believe the fish are cured. This is the dumbest thing aquarists can possibly think about this parasite!

 

9. Parasites seem to come in two types: one that only infects gills and one that infects gills and the fish’s body. The tissue of the gills has more exposure to the parasites because a lot of water goes by the gills as the fish ‘breathes’ or ‘swallows.’ Thus, there is an increase in chance the free-swimming parasite will get to the gill. This is one reason why fast breathing (over 90 swallows in one minute) is one of the symptoms of possible infection.

 

10. The parasite burrows into the fish, below the mucous layer and into the skin or gill itself. (This is why cleaner fish/shrimp can’t get to it in order to remove them from the fish). The second dumbest thing an aquarist can think: I'll get some cleaner fish or cleaner shrimp to remove/eat the parasite. THESE MARINES DO NOT EAT THE MI PARASITE NOR WILL FISH OR SHRIMP REMOVE THE PARASITE FROM THE INFECTED FISHES. Research has shown that the intestinal tracks of cleaner fish and shrimp do not contain MI parasites - - these lifeforms don’t eat MI off of infected fishes.

 

11. Parasite is transmitted in water (free-swimming and cyst stages), or by falling off of an infected fish (even one that seems healthy because of 9.). This means that water OR fish from another aquarium can carry the disease to another aquarium.

 

12. The parasite can infect bony fishes, including eels, sharks, and rays, though many species of fish, like Mandarins, have a good resistance to MI, they can still be infected and can harbor or carry the parasite. Invertebrates, snails, crabs, corals, plants, etc. are not affected/infected by MI, but the MI can be in their water, shells, etc.

 

13. There is no such thing as a dormant stage for MI. The parasite can’t wait around for another host. It MUST go through its cycle. Dr. Burgess recorded that in the cyst stage, he found the longest existing cyst to last for 60 days before releasing the free-swimming parasites. This is rare but possible. This led to the recommendation by many to allow 8 weeks for a fishless tank to be rid of this parasite.

 

14. INTERESTING FIND: If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has ‘worn itself out’ and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months.

 

 

Treatments:

 

1. Hyposalinity - Using a refractometer, hold salinity at 11ppt to 12ppt until 4 weeks after the last spot was seen. (Best to use salinity, but if you use specific gravity, that equates to roughly 1.008 to 1.009 sp. gr. units). Raise salinity slowly and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Hard to control pH and water quality during treatment. This is the least stressful treatment for the fish. See: A Fish Hyposalinity Treatment

 

2. Copper treatment - Follow medication recommendations. Can be effective in 2 to 4 weeks of treatment. After treatment, remove all copper and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Copper is a poison to the fish and creates some stress. The fish may stop eating. See end of this post for other things that can go wrong. See: Copper Medications - Good, Bad, and Ugly.

 

3.. Transfer method - Fish is moved from tank to tank to separate the fish from the cysts that fall off and the free-swimming stages of the parasite. Two hospital tanks are needed to perform this treatment. The fish is stressed by having to keep moving it between these hospital tanks.

 

4. Only the above 3 known cures fall into this category: Don't require prescriptions; use chemicals that are not carcinogens to humans; and work 100% of the time when diligently peroformed. Other chemicals will kill the MI parasite, but only in special conditions (not good for the fish) or in lab experiments (not using marine fish). Some chemicals will only kill some of the organisms, letting the others escape death to go on to multiply and infect.

 

5. Not any of the treatments can be done in a display tank with true live rock. Must be done in a hospital tank or quarantine tank. The hyposalinity and the copper treatment would kill invertebrates, live rock, and other non-fish marine life. Substrates and carbonates interfere with a copper treatment.

 

6. No known ‘reef-safe’ remedies work consistently. Many aquarists think a particular remedy works when in fact the fish acquire an immunity or defense against the parasite. It’s easy for any manufacturer to have an independent study done on the effectiveness of the ‘reef-safe’ remedy but they don’t because. . .

 

7. Cleaner shrimp and cleaner wrasses are not known to pick these parasites off of fish. (See 10. above).

 

8. Freshwater dips can kill some of the parasites on/in the fish, but not all of them because many of the parasites are protected by the fish's skin and mucous layer. (See 10. above).

 

9. No dip can get rid of these parasites because primarily of 10. above.

 

10. Let aquarium go fishless (without any foreign saltwater additions (e.g., water from LFS system, water from another tank or system -- use only distilled or RO/DI for evaporation and freshly made, uncontaminated salt water for water changes), without contamination from infected tanks, live rock additions, etc.) for at least 8 weeks and the tank will be free of MI. This 'fallow period' has over a 99.9% chance of success.

 

11. NEVER combine a copper treatment with a hyposalinity treatment. pH is hard to control in a hyposaline solution. If the pH drops, the copper complexed with water carbonates becomes 'free' and raises the copper content the fish is exposed to. The effect is similar to to overdosing with copper. Not worth the risk. Since they both cure Marine Ich, use one or the other and don't put so much stress on the fish (and yourself).

 

 

Defense and Immunity:

 

1. The fish’s mucous coating can provide some protection from the parasite. The mucous coating is where some fish immunity develops.

 

2. When water temperature drops, mucous coating is often reduced or lost in marine fishes, that is why sometimes MI becomes visible on the body of the fish after a sudden drop in temperature. This meant, however, that the disease was present and living in the aquarium, infecting fish without the aquarist having been aware of it.

 

3. No fish, no matter how good its defense is, can stop being infected. A healthy fish will and can be equally infected as a sick or stressed fish. What happens is the aquarists sees one or more fish with the disease and assumes because none are seen on the other fish in the aquarium that they are 'disease free.' NOT. Aquarists can't always see the parasites. See above top, 2., 3., and 9. All fish in an infected tank require treatment. MI is not and opportunistic pathogen - - It can and does infect healthy, unstressed fishes.

 

4. A weak, stressed, or sick fish will die sooner than a healthy fish, but is no more likely to get infected than the healthy fish.

 

5. A fish that survives an attack may develop proteins (also in the mucous coating) that will help fend off the parasite (this is a type of immune response). An immune fish will not get infected. Unfortunately. . .(see 6. below). . .

 

6. An immune fish doesn’t remain immune. Separated from the disease for months, the once immune fish can become MI infected.

 

7. Immunization seems to work, but not affordable or likely available to the hobby for many more decades. The immunization materials are hard to make, expensive, and slow to produce. Unfortunately, like it states in 6. above, the immunity is short-lived.

 

 

Subjective and Non-Subjective Observations, Claims, and Common Myths

 

1. Tangs seem more susceptible. True. Their mucous coatings are reduced in thickness and composition. They swim up to 25 miles a day in the ocean in search for food so maybe Mother Nature provided them with this as a means of 'escaping' being reinfected by the free-swimming parasites.

 

2. It goes away on its own. Untrue. Only visible at one stage IF it is on the body or fin of the fish. It’s the life cycle. If it was once seen, then it hasn't gone away -- it's just not visible to the aquarist.

 

3. It goes away with a ‘reef-safe’ remedy. Untrue. This is one of the biggest and most 'dangerous' of the misrepresentations in the hobby. The aquarist thinks everything is okay when it isn't. What usually has happened is that the parasite has killed the fish it will kill and the rest have developed a resistance or immunity. OR the strain of MI turns to infecting the gills only where the only stage of it can’t be seen by the hobbyist. The parasite is still in the aquarium.

 

4. It was gone then when a new fish is added, it is there again. Not true. See 3. It wasn’t gone or the new fish brought in the disease with it. A new addition to an aquarium can be the stress which triggers the other fish to reduce their defense or immunity, thus allow the parasite to 'bloom' to the point where the infection is now visible to the aquarist.

 

5. The fish lived the last outbreak then died during the second or subsequent outbreak. Can be true. The fish had a resistance or immunity that it lost.

 

6. It was diagnosed as MI spots, then never showed up again. It wasn’t MI or the fish quickly developed an immediate immunity or resistance, or the fish is still infected in the gills.

 

7. MI can ‘hang around’ almost unnoticed with just a body spot now and then because it often resides just in the gills. True. So ‘it is gone’ after ‘it was here’ is very unlikely.

 

8. Aquariums always have MI. Untrue. MI can be kept out of an aquarium. Just quarantine all fish and don’t let non-quarantined livestock get into the aquarium. After keeping thousands of marine fishes, my home aquariums have been free of MI since 1970.

 

9. Fish always have MI. Untrue. In the wild they often show up to 30% infected (or more) but the wild fish survive minor infections. In the tank the parasite can 'bloom.' In the tank the fish can't get away. The combination of bloom and no escape will overcome the fish. In capture and transportation the fish can share the disease and thus many wild caught marine aquarium fishes do have this parasite, but not all.

 

10. Like 9. a fish can't be made to be totally rid of MI. Untrue. All marine fish can be cured and rid of any MI infection.

 

11. Just feed the fish well and/or feed it garlic and it will be okay. Untrue. I compare this approach to this one: "Granny has pneumonia. Let's keep her home rather than take her to the hospital. We'll feed her well with chicken soup and vitamins -- and lots of garlic." :looney: Nutrition, foods, garlic, vitamins don't cure an infected fish. An infected fish is sick and is being tortured by the itching and discomfort. Don't let this happen to the fish. Cure it!!

 

12. A new cure has been discovered. Unlikely. If the aquarist thinks they have found a new cure, then have it researched and independently tested. It's easy and cheap. If it is as good as the above 3 then the professional veterinarians, private and public aquariums, fish farms, and I will use it. The aquarist needs to keep the perspective of how devastating this parasite is not to just the hobby but to the whole fish farming industry. Any new way of 100% treatment will make headlines!

 

13. If the MI can't always be detected, then why bother with a quarantine procedure? In the confines of a small quarantine and being there for no less than 6 weeks, the MI parasite will make itself known because the fish is weakened and the fish can't get away from being re-infected by multiplying MI parasites. In other words, the quarantine procedure instigates a 'bloom' of the parasite which will make it visible to the aquarist.

 

14. All white nodules fall off the fish and move on to the cyst stage. Untrue. It has been discovered that, on very rare occasions (why we don't know) the white nodule will encyst and rupture while still on the fish.

 

15. UV and/or Ozone kills MI. Ozone doesn't kill all parasites that pass through the unit, nor does the water treated with ozone kill the parasites. UV only kills the parasites that pass through the unit. Not all MI parasites will pass through the unit, so the UV will not rid an aquarium of MI. A UV can help prevent a 'bloom' of the parasites however, and thus help in its control. UV is not a cure nor a preventative measure for MI.

 

16. Spots are MI. Untrue. Probably one of the most problematic causes for rumors and myth-information in the hobby is assuming the spot is Marine Ich when it may be one of another few dozen other parasites or conditions (e.g., pimple-like reaction to infection) that look like Marine Ich. The mis-diagnosis is often the cause for claims of what cured MI, when the fish didn't have MI to start with.

 

17. My LFS quarantines their fishes for 2 weeks and I only buy them to be sure they are healthy and free of MI. Have you been reading the above? The 2 weeks is not long enough. Was the 2 weeks in isolation or is the fish's water mixed with other fish's water? Seeing is not believing, right? The truth is out there. . .Trust no one.

 

18. New reports indicate that there are forms of MI parasites that can survive in low salinity. True. In brackish waters there are variants of the parasite that can live in salinity as low as 5-8 ppt. Then why should we still count upon hyposalinity as a treatment? Easy. The variant in brackish waters is not the variant in natural sea water (35ppt). A marine fish has the MI variant adapted to 35ppt. So when hyposalinity is used on this parasite - it works.

 

19. The parasite can adapt to low salinity and it can survive a hyposalinity treatment. Highly unlikely. The parasite can adapt. Mother Nature likes to throw genetic variants into the mix when life reproduces. The theory is to give the organism a chance to survive (natural selection) in a changing environment. When the salinity is lowered to about 11-12ppt in the treatment tank, the MI cysts and free-swimming parasites don’t have the time to go through an adjustment. The sudden shift in salinity puts too much stress on the parasite. They are not able to ‘suddenly’ adapt. Remember those parasites that do live in low salinity got there slowly and are not the same ones on our marine fishes. See 18. above.

 

20. It comes and goes and my fish are fine. Untrue. The parasite doesn't like light. It tends to go through its stages quickly in the dark. Some will develop their white spot at night and drop off before the hobbyist checks the tank. Also, fish can 'hide' the parasite in the display tank by harboring it in their gills. If the parasite was noted there, it is still there. It didn't 'go' anywhere. Hobbyists can and do see spots in the morning and come back at lunch and all the fish are 'clean.' The fish are still sick. REMEMBER you can't see the parasite. All you can see with the unaided eye is the one stage where the spot is large enough to see.

 

 

 

 

PLEASE DON'T SPREAD RUMORS!

 

nuff said.. open season to all comers

[PowderBlue]

A lot of people use Rubbermaid tubs, 40 breeder with some PVC and a hob filter should be sufficient for the time being, if the fish begin to fight, you may have to buy another tank or get a cheap Rubbermaid tub for the ones being aggressive. Don't waste your time with feeding garlic, or buying a "cleaner wrasse" etc. none of those methods will help, the only two options are either hypo, or copper. In my experience copper works extremely well. My last battle with ich cost me over 400 dollars in fish and made me literally break down my tank and get out for a year. This morning I woke up to my maroon clown with ich. Water params are perfect, no other fish affected.... Yet, so I'm starting hypo tomorrow. Some fish will fight through it, some will not make it, some won't even show signs of infection.

My two cents, pull all fish, try whatever "cure" your comfortable with, and try not to beat yourself up about it. Don't do what I did and let it ruin the hobby for you. Just remember ichs life cycle is mainly in your tank, unseen, when you can see it on the fish, it's nearly done with its life cycle. It takes minimum 6 weeks of no host for it to die off. Sometimes can live up to 10. I read for hours upon hours last time. Tried all the myths to find out its a waste, gotta hypo ASAP or copper treat ASAP. Also to help seed the tank using Rock from your sump won't hurt, the ich will instantly be in your tank anyway, the fish has it. It HAS to have a host to survive m, rock is not a host.

[PowderBlue]

the reason for no LR hypo kills off all the good things... (with out going it to heavy detail please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

 

Loosing a piece of rock to help isn't a big deal tho, especially if it's from the sump, it will always grow back ya know. Just be sure to cure the rock or just toss it once your done if you do use copper.

[Derbird]

A lot of people use Rubbermaid tubs, 40 breeder with some PVC and a hob filter should be sufficient for the time being, if the fish begin to fight, you may have to buy another tank or get a cheap Rubbermaid tub for the ones being aggressive. Don't waste your time with feeding garlic, or buying a "cleaner wrasse" etc. none of those methods will help, the only two options are either hypo, or copper. In my experience copper works extremely well. My last battle with ich cost me over 400 dollars in fish and made me literally break down my tank and get out for a year. This morning I woke up to my maroon clown with ich. Water params are perfect, no other fish affected.... Yet, so I'm starting hypo tomorrow. Some fish will fight through it, some will not make it, some won't even show signs of infection.

My two cents, pull all fish, try whatever "cure" your comfortable with, and try not to beat yourself up about it. Don't do what I did and let it ruin the hobby for you. Just remember ichs life cycle is mainly in your tank, unseen, when you can see it on the fish, it's nearly done with its life cycle. It takes minimum 6 weeks of no host for it to die off. Sometimes can live up to 10. I read for hours upon hours last time. Tried all the myths to find out its a waste, gotta hypo ASAP or copper treat ASAP. Also to help seed the tank using Rock from your sump won't hurt, the ich will instantly be in your tank anyway, the fish has it. It HAS to have a host to survive m, rock is not a host.

 

Please be careful with the cleaner wrasses, they do eat the parisites but also feed off the fishes slime coat. When Ich is present the slime coat is the best defence so the cleaner wrasse is actually counter productive.

 

Reef Frontiers has a good selection of articles from a marine biolagest that covers many options.

 

Marine Ich - Myths and Facts

Curing Fish of Marine Ich

A Hyposalinity Treatment Process

Copper - Treatment, Use, Problems

 

It seems to come down to a balance of curing you ICH and stressing you fish to death. IMHO I would feed your fish well and let them beat the ICH. Durring this have your QT cycle. If you at that point want to rid your sysem of ICH then move them in to the cycled QT tank slowly, and let your tank go fallow for 8-10 weeks.

 

This is one of those questions that there is no right or even good answer so reaserch until you can reaserch no more and then choose the best option for your system

 

I hope your fish pull through and good luck with the battle.

[Re_Run]

Please be careful with the cleaner wrasses, they do eat the parisites but also feed off the fishes slime coat. When Ich is present the slime coat is the best defence so the cleaner wrasse is actually counter productive.

 

Reef Frontiers has a good selection of articles from a marine biolagest that covers many options.

 

Marine Ich - Myths and Facts

Curing Fish of Marine Ich

A Hyposalinity Treatment Process

Copper - Treatment, Use, Problems

 

It seems to come down to a balance of curing you ICH and stressing you fish to death. IMHO I would feed your fish well and let them beat the ICH. Durring this have your QT cycle. If you at that point want to rid your sysem of ICH then move them in to the cycled QT tank slowly, and let your tank go fallow for 8-10 weeks.

 

This is one of those questions that there is no right or even good answer so reaserch until you can reaserch no more and then choose the best option for your system

 

I hope your fish pull through and good luck with the battle.

 

 

 

+1 ON THIS

[Garrett]

+1 ON THIS

+2 on that, we all have our own plans of attack. But we all agree on is the good information thats actually needed

[Toby Flenderson]

A lot to digest. Thanks to everyone for the input. My official plan is to start QT Tomarrow with hypo salinity. All fish are going in, I'm leaving the tank fallow 8 maybe 10 weeks. Have my tank filling now.

[Garrett]

Start with a higher salinity and work down from.water changes itll be alot easier on the fish then the

Transfer from reef to living in hypo

[Toby Flenderson]

I'm going to follow the instructions, I just meant that was the treatment plan im going to use.

[PowderBlue]

 

Please be careful with the cleaner wrasses, they do eat the parisites but also feed off the fishes slime coat. When Ich is present the slime coat is the best defence so the cleaner wrasse is actually counter productive.

 

Reef Frontiers has a good selection of articles from a marine biolagest that covers many options.

 

Marine Ich - Myths and Facts

Curing Fish of Marine Ich

A Hyposalinity Treatment Process

Copper - Treatment, Use, Problems

 

It seems to come down to a balance of curing you ICH and stressing you fish to death. IMHO I would feed your fish well and let them beat the ICH. Durring this have your QT cycle. If you at that point want to rid your sysem of ICH then move them in to the cycled QT tank slowly, and let your tank go fallow for 8-10 weeks.

 

This is one of those questions that there is no right or even good answer so reaserch until you can reaserch no more and then choose the best option for your system

 

I hope your fish pull through and good luck with the battle.

 

There is a write up from abiologist staring that the wrasse do not actually eat ich. I'll try to find it for you.

[Derbird]

There is a write up from abiologist staring that the wrasse do not actually eat ich. I'll try to find it for you.

 

Yea they only eat the cysts. The parisite them self in burried in the fishes skin so they don't actually get to it. Same with the cleaner shrimp. I miss wrote DOH! but they do eat the slime coat and that makes it easier for the ICH to attack.

[PowderBlue]

 

Yea they only eat the cysts. The parisite them self in burried in the fishes skin so they don't actually get to it. Same with the cleaner shrimp. I miss wrote DOH! but they do eat the slime coat and that makes it easier for the ICH to attack.

 

Oh I see! Yup you are 100 percent correct! A lot of people buy them and only make matters worse!

[Gill]

thats not kicking ick' date=' your making your fish live with a parasite. kinda cruel? thats not a cure, thats not doing anything. he asked for help in curing it[/quote']

 

Truthfully you would be surprised at how many big players on this forum do not fear Ick because they have healthy fish who can fight it off.

 

My tank is currently in hypo so don't think I'm trying to lump myself in with them LOL

[Gill]

If I were you I think I would just give the tangs to a shop who has copper in one of Thier systems; after telling them the fish have Ick of course. I just think that many fish in a QT is going to be ugly :( I would think all the others would simply fight it off given the chance and honestly you probably shouldn't have the tangs in your system in the long term anyways. I admire your bravery with the QT though, it is definitely the best way to go if you have the time to keep the ammonia down ( ie water changes) I wish you luck and please keep us updated even if things don't go well, it will be a learning experience for everyone here if you do.

[CuttleFishandCoral]

Sorry that you are having to deal with this. Keep at it and everything will be fine. Looks like you are on the right track. Good luck. Jeff

[Toby Flenderson]

Let the healing begin. I have caught 3 of my fish so far with the help of a fish trap. Thanks Kim. One of them being the blue tang. I've got my hob going with a 4 day old sponge form my tank. I have another one in my tank and I will swap it out in a week. I'm going to test for amonia and change water till then. My starting salinity is 1.020. I'm going to lower that and hold fast for 8 to ten weeks.

[Garrett]

good job gl my friend

[PowderBlue]

I hope it works out for the best for you! Let me know if you need any help.

[Toby Flenderson]

Thanks, I will. Could I try that bio wheel filter of yours? I'm going to see if I can get an impeller for it

[MVPaquatics]

I think i have an extra biowheel filter laying around if you need another. probably have some cycled filter media also. Good luck, you are doing the right thing

[PowderBlue]

Thanks' date=' I will. Could I try that bio wheel filter of yours? I'm going to see if I can get an impeller for it[/quote']

 

Sure I'll bring to work tomorrow

[Toby Flenderson]

pB- thanks, shoot me a text and I'll run up there

 

MVP- that would be great if I can't fix the other, are you selling?

[MVPaquatics]

Yeah selling the filter. Say $15. Free cycled media with purchase lol. If you end up needing it. Let me know by pm. Ill return my address and set it out. I am completely swamped as far as schedule but can get it out for you in the am and you can pick it up whenever that day

[Gill]

How is the QT going?