Help with Micro Bubbles

[bluecheese]

I am having some problems with micro-bubbles. I have some coming up from the sump presumably because of my return coming down pretty fast ?.I am running the main line to the tank on 1200 GPH but through only 1 sea swirl. The sump is a three part sump, so that the return dumps in part 1, slowly moves underneath a gate to part 2 and above another gate to part 3 where it gets recirculated to the Sea Swirl. And When I turn on the CL the bubbles just stick around for much longer . It makes the entire tank "bubbly".

 

I was considering 2 things. 1-Coupling another seaswirl (costly) or a SCwID (which I already have available from another system) to split my return or 2- decrease my inflow . Although the problem seems to be at the return to the sump, lots of bubbles generated. If I decrease my flow (valve is between intake and pump) I increase my bubbles even more. head ache !!(scratch)

 

Any suggestions?

[impur]

I put a T on the drain from the tank into the sump. Fixed my MB probs.

 

Other things you can try are micron bags over the drain in the sump, or putting an elbow and a length of pipe with a bunch of holes or slits in it that sits right at the water level.

 

If MBs are coming from your CL, then i would guess there is a small leak somewhere letting in air.

[bluecheese]

Thanks

 

I already put several elbows and a T which decreased some (maybe a 1/3 rd ) of the bubbles but still not enough. Have not tried to poke holes in the pipe though. I'll give it a try.

 

What are micron bags? Where do you get them?

 

I don't think the CL is generating bubbles because when it is on alone I have no bubbles. It's only when I already have the bubbles from teh main line that the problem gets worse with the CL. I guess the bubbles just keep cycling through the CL and stay around longer.

[chewie]

If I decrease my flow (valve is between intake and pump) I increase my bubbles even more. head ache !!(scratch)

 

Any suggestions?

 

Put a ball valve on the output of the pump to restrict flow. Never restrict flow on the intake side.

 

Your sump may not be long enough to disperse the bubbles before getting sucked into your return pump. Or you may need more baffles.

 

A filter sock would help greatly, but you need to change them out regularly.

 

Salt water fanta-seas sells the socks, and they even have a exhange program for a Dollar. You take in your dirty one, and exchange for a clean one.

 

If the filter sock doesn't help, then you probably need to cut the flow back on your return pump.

[reef165]

yes to most up there. for sure though it has nothing to do with your seaswirl or how many you have. Another thing it could be is a tinny pin hole in the return plumbing that may be acting as a ventury and sucking air in

 

how big is your tank? whats the reason for so much water going through the sump? you could use the pump youve got on a closed loop and use the seaswirl on that then get a smaller pump to return from the sump.

[CCR]

Your sump sounds OK. No bubbles on closed loop when running alone. Good. A filter sock is your easiest fix. What about skimmer output/ any extra bubbles coming from discharge. Where in the system is the skimmer discharge? How about a picture. It always helps

[bluecheese]

Put a ball valve on the output of the pump to restrict flow. Never restrict flow on the intake side.

 

Your sump may not be long enough to disperse the bubbles before getting sucked into your return pump. Or you may need more baffles.

 

A filter sock would help greatly, but you need to change them out regularly.

 

Salt water fanta-seas sells the socks, and they even have a exhange program for a Dollar. You take in your dirty one, and exchange for a clean one.

 

If the filter sock doesn't help, then you probably need to cut the flow back on your return pump.

 

Yes I agree with that. I am planning to do that next, just add another valve an restrict the flow from the pump. The sump is about 3 feet long and length could be an issue. The filter sock sounds interesting, do you just wrap it around the return pipe?. Do you have a picture of it showing what it looks like?

 

reef165; I dismantled the return plumbing and put it back changing and adding section including a T. But I did not check if there was an air trap in the upper part where my dorso is. The tank is 200G, the sump about 40 G. I have tried to play with volume by filling up the sump as high as I can, but the bubles still come rushing. Maybe the 1200GPH is excessive after all.

 

CCR: I know you love pics. I jjust got my camera back and will try to take pics and post pics. The closed loop is already on 1200-1800 GPH and the skimmer on 1800 GPH with no bubles coming on the discharge. Both return from skimmer and main loop come in the far left of the sump and then navigate all the way to the right down and up 2 gates. Both skimmer and main pump intake originate from that far right section of the sump. Maybe this pic will help. Bubbles on the left! You can see the bottom of the elbow and the T. big pipe =return from overflow, small pipe is return from skimmer. If you compare the color between the left and right compartment you can detect the turbidity on the left section of the sump due to flow + bubles.

 

Just another thought, I have two baffles in my overflow and as you can see in the pic in order to avoid running 2 pipes to the sump I combined them on the return outside of the tank just above the sump. So this might actually create a vortex and increase the speed /force of the flow ending in the sump?. Would it be better if I would have an individual pipe for each baffle or put a bigger pipe if combining both?

 

 

Here if the left part of the sump where the return generate bubbles. You can see the excess big bubbles coming back to the surface.

 

 

The middle and right section of the sump with pump going back to skimmer and intake to the main pump to the tank.

 

[CCR]

Question, Why are you running so much through skimmer? The left side is acting like a skimmer with the micro bubbles building skimate around the egg crate. The return is to deep. It is taking the finer bubbles directly under your first baffle instead of drawing it down, it's getting pulled under the baffle from the side of the discharge. Shorten pipe, face the discharge at the opposite wall of the baffle. A filter sock in this case would really help. With both skimmer and return joined. I would separate, not combine. when the skimmer is off, no bubbles in it at all, then how is your return?

[impur]

Here is a pic of my 2 drains with filter socks on em.

 

[bluecheese]

Question' date=' Why are you running so much through skimmer? The left side is acting like a skimmer with the micro bubbles building skimate around the egg crate. The return is to deep. It is taking the finer bubbles directly under your first baffle instead of drawing it down, it's getting pulled under the baffle from the side of the discharge. Shorten pipe, face the discharge at the opposite wall of the baffle. A filter sock in this case would really help. With both skimmer and return joined. I would separate, not combine. when the skimmer is off, no bubbles in it at all, then how is your return?[/quote']

 

CCR, actually the pump to the skimmer is rated 1800 GPH but after adjusting for height (4 feet) etc.. it is about 1375-1500 GPH. I usually run my ETS skimmer between 4-6 times my total volume and with the 250 G total volume I should be running about 1000 to 1500 GPH. So I figure I should be about OK (The skimmer is about 4 feet higher than the pump). I have to say that beside the bubbles the water is prestine when running the skimmer on the upper end.

 

Yes you are exactly right about the bubbles going underneath the baffle and directly to the next section. I had the original return exactly as you describe it, a little bit closer to the surface and facing at the opposite wall of the baffle (scratch) . Turning off the skimmer has no effect on the bubbles. Actually the skimmer alone generates no bubbles on the return.

 

The skimmer and return are not joined see pic above, skimmer comes from 3/4 in pipe on left and return from 1 1/2 inch. What are joined are the 2 returns from my overflow (two dorsos) which I combined into 1 return s it exits the tank. So teh 1 1/2 pipe you see coming from the right is the combination of two x 1 1/2 returns from the overflow. This is where I am thinking I might have made a mistake since I am forcing two pipes into one of the same diameter (thinking I would save space). If anything now that I think of it, it should be designed the other way. Right? Smaller pipe to bigger pipe decrease velocity/bubbles, and big pipe to small pipe increase velocity (thus decrease bubbles)

 

Impur, thanks for the pic that seems pretty straightforward, It seems that the sock might be effective. I'll try a couple more things (decouple the 2 returns, raise the return again and h20 level) and if it does not help I'll give the sock a try.

 

Thanks for those helpful suggestions. It's amazing how a new problem make you feel powerless when you never had to address it before. Almost like those brain teeser puzzles that seem imposible to solve after you spend 2 hours on them. But figuring it out is a big part of the fun isn't it?(naughty)

[reefhut]

?

 

How's the battle going? Someone had mentioned that putting a ball valve on the return side of the pump was the way to slow down flow, never put a ball valve on the intake side on a external pump. You never want to choke a pump down on the return side. Reason is, the pump will create to much head pressure and wear the pump prematurely. The pump can also get hot and draw to more amperage than what it's rated at. That Mag pump that is laying in your sump, is the reason you have micro bubbles. It is pulling the bubbles from the water surface. If that is the return, put a down spout of some sort and pull the water off the bottom of the sump, were there should be less bubbles.

[bluecheese]

Shannon, sorry I missed your call. Today is one of those "all day meeting day" with just a few minutes here and there. Beside the bubbles everything else is shapping up nicely. I have not fired the calcium reactor yet so I am slowly adjusting the calcium manually.

 

The Mag pump goes to the skimmer. I thought too it might be sucking all the bubbles originally but turning that pump off had not affect at all on the MB. The return is the one with the down spout next to it (to the front/right of the Mag).

[chewie]

Let me clarify a bit.

 

You can use a ball valve on the intake, but only to use it as a shut off device. When it comes time to clean the pump, ideally you want to be able to disconnect the pump without draining your sump, or if on a closed loop.

 

Just don't use the intake to restrict the output.

 

A filter sock is a 8" diameter sock with usually a 100 micron rating. all your drain water from the tank passes through the sock, creating less turbulence while trapping detritus. If you don't change them often, you will have nitrate problems.