jackaninny Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Listen, this may not be a popular opinion(especially on an aquarium enthusiast web page), but here it goes: Taking fish from the wild really isn't that immoral. But it is when it spans beyond the local area and into a national market that there is potential danger for messing up an ecosystem, thus it becomes immoral to participate in the masses. We all know how delicate a reef is, just think about your tank- if you take out some of your fish, then there will be a new adjustment in how the system handles a decrease in nutrients and inevitably, there will be shifts. In the case of a wild reef with collectors, this becomes even more true. If you think about the types of fish and corals available on a regular basis, there isn't that much in comparison to the large numbers of species available. There are THOUSANDS if not more species of fish. so if the collectors focus on the fish that known to the hobbyist, that are the most desirable, then there is an in balance in that species because a fish collector will get fish that will sell. If you take out a crucial part of the food chain (even if you decrease the amount of that fish), there will be negative effects. perhaps the damage would be minimal if every fish species was collected equally, then there would be a partially proportional effect. However when one area is taken out, there is a big difference. If you take out one fish, you really aren't taking out just one. That fish will reproduce, thus you are taking out multiple fish. Then you take into account the number that die in transit, the horrible effect of cyanide and other poisons for collecting purposes... its a big deal. (even if it isnt in hawaii) This being said, this is NOT meant to be an attack in any (i repeat ANY) sort of way to you kevin. Your corals are beautiful, and i have no doubt that you are a conscious reefer/collector. Perhaps even every collector in Hawaii is humane and good with collecting. But the truth of the matter is that in other areas, there are people who are not as considerate. This is the problem I myself, will only buy fish from Hawaii, and preferably tank raised. This bill, even if it stomps on our hobby, is a move to perserve fish. Isnt that what our hobby is about? admiring wildlife? what better way than to Help SAVE our reefs than to minimize collecting? Perhaps the bill is a little too closed, but i think regulation is required worldwide in order to maintain the ecosystems The marine ecosystem in Hawaii has far greater margin of error in terms of nutrients and water quality than your reef tank by virtue of the shear size. An ecosystem that size has a tremendous amount of "buffering" ability to provide a habitable system for native species. I cannot think of a single Hawaiian species that might be harvested for the hobby that would migrate beyond that system which is very isolated - we're not talking about salmon migration here so I think it's a stretch to say it's spans beyond the local area. Far more damage is done to these species with the expansion of resorts and destruction/degradation of habit through extraction based industries and simple movement of people and goods through the area. Bottom line is that some formal regulation is probably needed but the call to shut down the entire industry smacks of over-reaching, lazy people who don't want to do the heavy, more costly lifting that involves continuous study and monitoring of the ecosystem in question to determine what is a safe amount of species to remove and still keep a healthy system. Chances are some collectors will probably have to look for another vocation and yes we will need to pay them, in the short term, to leave the industry. Chances are there will be more paperwork and prices will go up but with a comprehensive plan it will be balanced and preserve the species for future generations to enjoy and allow for an overall healthier industry with fewer fly-by-night operators. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trautman Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 While i do agree with you jackaninny, i think that there is always going to be harm in the system, even if it can "buffer". the fact of the matter is that the toxins(proportionally) to the tank (the ocean) are small enough that the effect may not be realized short term. But as population and tourism increase (Good idea for the bill BTW Kevin) there will be more toxins introduced at a greater rate. The difference is that the ocean isnt going to go out and buy a new protein skimmer, and it isnt going to do a 20% water change. It is going to have less and less functionality. and sadly, it will suffer you say that it isn't as big of a deal as we say it may be? this is maybe true. but it WILL be a big deal, so why don't we stop(or slow) the snowball at the top of the hill? As far as other factors such as hotels ETC. yes, they may be worse, and this is also a problem. but it is useless to only fight a war on one front Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC-k3v Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 Hawaii has 806 miles of protein skimmer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trautman Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Hawaii has 806 miles of protein skimmer. true....true...true... i still stand by my statement however Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC-k3v Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 true....true...true... i still stand by my statement however Understood. It's not just hotels... Hurricanes have destroyed more reefs in this state than anything else. In 2006, 40 Million gallons of raw sewage spilled off of Waikiki. The recent floods we had a month ago had washed trash from the landfill in our oceans and closed all beaches on the west side of Oahu. Kaneohe Bay, home of the largest barrier reef in the US is under study now about water quality due to sedimentation from run off. Reefs on the same bay are being smothered by invasive "gorilla ogo". Introduced by the marine biologists on coconut island years ago. (oops) There is a problem with the Roi, or peacock grouper, killing our reef fishes. For some reason someone thought it would be a good idea to bring the invasive Roi in to make spear fishing more fun. Who is the weakest of the bunch? Who out of all parties doesn't have millions to defend themselves? The aquarium trade. Thanks snorkel bob. Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trautman Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 hey, lets start having peacock groupers as pets, now THATS humane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gill Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Uhg... Bill Walsh. of course. lol Have you read Ret Talbots latest article on Hawaii? He touches a bit on Mr. Walsh's data and has the same thoughts as i on it. Take a look: (Worrisome Data) http://coralmagazine.coverleaf.com/coral/20110102?sub_id=BM5ZGjld2Z4dt#pg82 Kevin Hmmm... I supply a link to a scientific study, and you supply a link to a reef keepers magazine? That IMO is more than a little biased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gill Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 None of this explains why yellow tangs are in such decline??? There is one blatantly obvious explanation however. Understood. It's not just hotels... Hurricanes have destroyed more reefs in this state than anything else. In 2006, 40 Million gallons of raw sewage spilled off of Waikiki. The recent floods we had a month ago had washed trash from the landfill in our oceans and closed all beaches on the west side of Oahu. Kaneohe Bay, home of the largest barrier reef in the US is under study now about water quality due to sedimentation from run off. Reefs on the same bay are being smothered by invasive "gorilla ogo". Introduced by the marine biologists on coconut island years ago. (oops) There is a problem with the Roi, or peacock grouper, killing our reef fishes. For some reason someone thought it would be a good idea to bring the invasive Roi in to make spear fishing more fun. Who is the weakest of the bunch? Who out of all parties doesn't have millions to defend themselves? The aquarium trade. Thanks snorkel bob. Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trautman Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 the article was certainly more upbeat than the raw facts, i will say that. i think that marine breeding needs to advance. if we can get most of the livestock from breeding, then we will be infinitely better off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgf86123 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 I'm sorry, but I'm of the opinion that total bans, on ANYTHING, are completely wrong, it's no different from breed bans. NO one, repeat NO one has the right to tell another person what they can or can't do, keep, or buy as long as they are breaking no MORAL laws, screw the government. Yes, I guess you could call me an anti-government person, but I'm of the opinion that all members of government need to be stood up against a wall, but hey, that's just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trautman Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 bureaucracy blows. but i would certainly consider what is being discussed as morality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC-k3v Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 None of this explains why yellow tangs are in such decline??? There is one blatantly obvious explanation however. You're saying that aquarium collectors and no one else is the reason for the yellow tangs decline? I find that comical. The study you posted is finger pointing the collectors as i assumed your comment to do. I refuse to believe the fish collectors in this state is solely responsible for the decline of the yellow tang or any other fish for that matter. And me bias, of course i am... I'll be the first to admit it. I'm not going to let one person take the roof over my head and the clothes off my daughters back. We are getting of the point of this thread. This is a ban, this is not work toward any kind of conservation or sustainability efforts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgf86123 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 "Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on five thousand years of experience that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners." -Edward Abbey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald525 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 haha, just 17, thank you and i don't intend to start any drama, its only my opinion I'm all for conversation Trautman and I heart spotted owls Brad and will occasionally hug a tree just for fun. What's wrong is this bill is based on faulty data and proposes a blanket ban which is not the way to go in my opinion. Getting into the hobby made me more respectful of the ocean. I have to admit I was one of those stupid tourists years ago that stomped all over the coral reefs in Hawaii with snorkel bob's rented gear because I didn't know any better. I try to learn everything i can to keep my fish and corals alive. I think conversation needs to be explored with facts not a knee jerk reaction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trautman Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 but gill quotes what you said about a human toll on the environment rather than collectors. i dont think he was blaming collectors it is just silly to point a finger at one person. it is all of the factors combined, no matter how small any one peticular element is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald525 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 "Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on five thousand years of experience that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners." -Edward Abbey WTH Mick? .............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC-k3v Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 but gill quotes what you said about a human toll on the environment rather than collectors. i dont think he was blaming collectors it is just silly to point a finger at one person. it is all of the factors combined, no matter how small any one peticular element is. I may of misunderstood his post then. If i did i apologize. This is a very emotional topic for my family and many friends' families. Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gill Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Ok I guess you missed my point, if pollution, scuba bob, ext. Are to be equally blamed; them why is the effect on different fish species not equal? Why are we seeing the most dramatic declines in yellow tangs, the most collected fish If I am not mistaken??? Hmmm... Let me think why would yellow tangs be in such decline??? This is about conservation it absolutely is. I am sure you could find another job to put clothes on your daughters back, I am admit it would probably be less enjoyable work but you have a way more enjoyable job then most of us. You're saying that aquarium collectors and no one else is the reason for the yellow tangs decline? I find that comical. The study you posted is finger pointing the collectors as i assumed your comment to do. I refuse to believe the fish collectors in this state is solely responsible for the decline of the yellow tang or any other fish for that matter. And me bias, of course i am... I'll be the first to admit it. I'm not going to let one person take the roof over my head and the clothes off my daughters back. We are getting of the point of this thread. This is a ban, this is not work toward any kind of conservation or sustainability efforts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgf86123 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Kim, it's fairly self explanatory, the government, in all of it's forms, needs to stay the hell outta peoples lives, it's not their job to tell people how to live nor to interfere in our lives, Mother Nature will tell us when we've gone to far, and it won't be pretty when she does, but nothing the government does is going to stop the destruction, an the way they do things in Hawaii collecting wise is much better for the environment than anywhere else in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgf86123 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Gill, if you support this bill so much, then you need to get rid of your tank. That's the point behind the bill, to eventually make all aspects of this hobby ILLEGAL, so by supporting this bill, you are furthering their agenda. And telling someone to find another job is dirty pool dude, plain and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trautman Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 OKAY!!!! wow let me get this straight: we have multiple conversations in this thread going on. WOAH!! the role of government and anarchy is for another thread. But i would be SO down to talk about it. i am personally a benign dictator fan myself. lets cool this thread down before someone gets too riled up! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgf86123 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Actually, it goes hand in hand, whether you believe that or not, I personally feel it's the truth. This is just the governments way of trying to control one more aspect of our lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gill Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Mother Nature will tell us when we've gone to far' date=' and it won't be pretty when she does, but nothing the government does is going to stop the destruction [/quote']. Wow your logic is... Well I guess I will leave it at wow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald525 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 I have to agree this thread is getting way off track here...... I don't blame Kevin for being emotional about this topic. I think we would all feel the same if our life and livelihood was being threatened. I'm all for healthy debate and seeing both sides but this thread is going to get closed down if people can't be civil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC-k3v Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 Ok I guess you missed my point' date=' if pollution, scuba bob, ext. Are to be equally blamed; them why is the effect on different fish species not equal? Why are we seeing the most dramatic declines in yellow tangs, the most collected fish If I am not mistaken??? Hmmm... Let me think why would yellow tangs be in such decline??? [/quote'] Personally, i think they are the worst looking tang in this hobby. (I hate yellow tangs) anyway... You are correct, the yellow tang is the most collected. So put bag limits, limit size, regulate the catch. Don't ban and destroy the whole industry. There are studies proving that the yellow tang population is up in conservation areas and that these fish are overflowing into non-conservation areas. This is about conservation it absolutely is. This bill is an all out ban on this industry. I am sure you could find another job to put clothes on your daughters back' date=' I am admit it would probably be less enjoyable work but you have a way more enjoyable job then most of us.[/quote'] In this economy and in these islands... not as easy as you think. But sure, you point is taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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