drock59 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Ewww........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecheese Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 So cool to see this issue making the Nobel price list and award. While Gore might be the most famous person in the US for that award, this is shared by many many scientists and people in Europe who worked really hard on understanding what is going (one of them right here in Oregon at OSU). Al is only one in a hundred to get teh distinction for this round but it's good to have people talking about this issue. Would be even better to see problem solvers not problem makers, but maybe that comes with consciousness... Not "compassionate" consciousness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drock59 Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecheese Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 And by consciousness I mean things like this: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefgeek84 Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 Phillippe I agree that this should be discussed and should be recognized, although I am on a different side as you and drock (as I do not think humans are causing global warming, I believe it is natural climate change)...but Gore is the last person on this earth that should have gotten a nobel prize for anything... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecheese Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 When in doubt Well whether it is natural or man induced climate change, what is going on and wehether we can do anything about it is definitely what we need to discuss here (not whether Gore deserve a price, although some people might get more a kick out of that). Again the fact that he shared the price with many people that we don't hear about here but that are all over the news in Europe really illustrate the sheltered environment the media has restricted us to. The Nobel price is not singleling Gore or recognizing him especially (the media in the US is). The NP is recognizing the issues and the people who are working hard to understand what is going on and what can be done if any. But this is a global issue not just an US issue. If as you think it is a natural climate change, is there anything that we as human we can do to reduce the impact that this may have on ecosystems and many other aspect of life as we know it today. The disapearance of corals, melting of glaciers etc...Can we limit or reduce the phenomenon ? Can we be sure that we have no effect at all? And if we can't be sure what can we do? If as I undertsand it human do contribute a fair amount to global warming, ozone depletion etc... then the same questions apply. In an area where disinformation rules our everyday news there is no certitude one way or another. We could all be manipulated (as we are already for so many things) in thinking certain things that are possibly fiction. However, if by any chance the warning signs are real and we can have an impact. Wouldn't you think that it is a lesser risk to take action that may change the course of things and at worse just make the environment cleaner and a better place for your kids to grow (this if for when you'll start cooking your buns in the oven)? There is much more to lose if we just seat still, and watch it as it happens and realize then that we could have made a difference "back then" (especially if we could have). So the issue is not about who is wrong or right or who knows best, it is about common sense and how we process the information, and how as a species we solve the problem (and whether we can). For the same reason we try to prevent our tanks to crash by making sure we do not create unnecessary stresses or unbalances that we know could have disatrous consequences. Are you willing to foster a behaviour that we know has its problems, some of them are clear, others not so clear. Just ask yourself, which behaviour would have the more damaging impact if the thinking is wrong? Just be honest with the planet, treat it with respect and prevention regardless of who is right on the issue. I am not asking to hug a tree, just to be honest about the good things that we can do and the one we know are not so good. We don't have to agree on many things, but as a society if we want to pretend that we are a civilization, we have to behave as one and act as one and use our talents to beautify not to destroy, especially when in doubt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecheese Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 Al Gore hatred, justification? Now I was surprised to read so much desdain and hatred about Al Gore and curious why it is driving the right certifiably insane. I started to question what did Al Gore do so wrong to deserve such a negative and agressive outcry and then came this piece But really we should focus on the solutions not our differences. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitterbait Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 Yawn... ok whatever. so maybe i will poke another question into the fray: assuming that the world is warming up (lol)... what gives any puny human the right to be so arrogant in thinking that this is the right temperature and climate for this planet??? i mean c'mon! this planet has spent a good portion of it's life being much warmer (consider the times of the dinosaures if you go with the evolution theory) and it finally gets cool enough for us to do ok and thrive and then some people decide to get their panties in a bunch when the planet starts heading back up to its historic climate which, i might add, spawned the beginning of life. so... where do ya'll get off in thinking your so special. and BTW, i still give more credence to bigfoot than global warming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reefgeek84 Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 Gore is a hypocrite... http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-08-09-gore-green_x.htm http://www.suntimes.com/news/steyn/281949,CST-EDT-STEYN04.article http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,254908,00.html http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/GlobalWarming/story?id=2906888 This is what is wrong with al gore... Do not preach to me that we are the cause and personify yourself (al gore) as being the one who has the answers, when you do not practice what you preach... and in his movie, he claims he has been onto this trend for many, many years, so he should be the first one to have the greenest house on the market...So it is not like he just had an epiphany and is working on getting things switched over, he has "been concerned" about this issue for many years... This is like me saying we need to clean up our oceans, but then live in a house that dumps my sewage directly in the water... Phillippe you are correct that this is not about him, but it kind of is... I think we need to watch our selves and yes we should all do more to better this planet, not just for us but future generations to come. But I truly believe this is climate change and not global warming...I think there are many more pressing things to be concerned about: Population control, human colonization of animals land, figuring out how to live in harmony with animals (cause the population is only going to grow and we are going to build, so if we can live in harmony with animals when we encroach on their territory, it would make the world a better place) I just do not think that we have enough data to predict the future of what this planet does on a regular basis and by regular basis, I mean every 20-30 million years... There is not historical trend to theorize the future.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecheese Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 Do more to better the planet So great, we are on the same page (daz). So how do you think we do that (watch ourselves ) ? How do we make all this happen and invest into a better future as you said for the future generations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitterbait Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 burn baby burn?? sorry, wrong reference. honestly i stick with the basics, recycle where i can. don't litter, leave nature as if you never came... the standards. but if people expect me to live like some of these tree huggin vegans... ain't gonna happen. I have always said i am a member of PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drock59 Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Gore is the last person on this earth that should have gotten a nobel prize for anything WHy? Would you give to George W? How about General Petraeus as some of the wing nuts have suggested? I find it hard to believe that what he is doing is bad. Even if global warming is not, at least partly man caused, why does it matter what Al Gore is doing to stop it? It doesnt, we have bigger fish to fry. Yawn... ok whatever. Herein lies the problem. DOH! Gore is a hypocrite... Name one single politician who is not a hypocrite. (foresee Ron Paul reference) But I truly believe this is climate change and not global warming...I think there are many more pressing things to be concerned about: Population control, human colonization of animals land, figuring out how to live in harmony with animals (cause the population is only going to grow and we are going to build, so if we can live in harmony with animals when we encroach on their territory, it would make the world a better place) Thats awesome, truly. Either way dont you think that we ought to try and lessen the impact on all those things you mentioned by going more green? IE, reducing carbon footprint, reducing consumption, etc. assuming that the world is warming up (lol)... I think very few people will dispute the world is getting warmer. The cause is in question by a small percentage. expect me to live like some of these tree huggin vegans... ain't gonna happen Nobody is really asking you to live that way. How is reducing your carbon footprint making you live like a "tree hugger." I still cant quite wrap my head around the whole "tree hugger" thing. What is so bad about loving and/or respecting nature? It does not seem to me that reefgeek would qualify as a stereotypical tree hugger, but as he just posted, has a high respect and appreciation of nature. Am I missing something? :USA: Put that on your lapel, it makes you a patriot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyenna Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Yawn... ok whatever. so maybe i will poke another question into the fray: assuming that the world is warming up (lol)... are you serious? I thought we already hashed over this. (scratch):p It's funny that this thread was brought back. I was just wondering if I should bump it up after the Gore announcement. Thank you Dan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Here is the problem with the radical environmental movement. There once was a hippie that sat in a tree for a long time and eventually paid like a million dollars for one tree. That million dollars could have bought hundreds of acres of trees that while they may not have been as old as this one tree but they could have eventually become that old. This is a good example with what is wrong with a lot of these movements. There are not really any politicians that are not hypocrits to some degree it is just what degree they are. I am not going to say that we should not limit what we do but if you are going to lead the charge you should lead by example. How about we convince the 3rd world countries and newly industrialized nations that they should give up their chance to not live in poverty so that they can help the earth which may or may not be going through a change that is caused by their desire to do something better for their family. As far as global warming there are hundreds of things that are contributing factors to the warming of the earth. Species will adapt or go extinct. We as humans interfere in the natural world far to much. We have almost caused species of trees and plants to go extinct by putting out fires. For all we know our efforts to help the earth will cause more damage than it will help. The topic of Al Gore. The big advocate of carbon offset credits. First let me ask you how you can offset your pollution. The answer is there is no real way. There are two reasons for carbon offset credits. Number one so rich people can feel better about themselves and the fact that they pollute 100s of times more than the rest of us. The Second Reason is if you are Al Gore you had a little prethought before you introduced the idea and started a company to sell carbon offset credits so that you can get rich and fly around in your private jet by convincing people that they are destroying the earth and telling them how they can make it better. I know so many people out there hate George Bush and think he is evil for starting a war but let us look back at what has led up to this war and what has happened because of it. Lets start with Sadaam Hussein. This is a man who was an incredibly brutal dictator that killed hundreds of thousands of his own people. He intended on everyone believing that he had weapons of mass destruction. This was a ploy to keep Iran from invading his country after we put him in his place in the first gulf war. So we overthrew a brutal dictator because we thought what he wanted us to think. Either way although we may not have gone in there for the reason we thought we were it will be in the end an amazing result and that is a free and peaceful Iraqi democracy. So once all this plays out and we have a Middle east based on democracy and freedom at that point in time George Bush should be given the Nobel Peace prize for standing on an unpopular idea and making a real difference in the world not pushing some idea that may or may not be happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitterbait Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 AMEN Sean!!! Dang you are much better in explaining it than me, thanks. Beleive it or not i sit next to quite a few folks at work and abroad that still support the war, the troops, and yes, even Bush. We just don't usually talk as loud as the people who don't support him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drock59 Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 hate George Bush and think he is evil for starting a war Only a small reason why I dont like the man. How about illegal wiretapping since BEFORE 9/11, outing CIA agents, voter fraud, election fraud, incredibly ridiculous tax policy, torture, illegal renduring, stem cells, the list goes on and on. Im not a one issue voter like so many people out there. This guy is an equal opportunity offender. It must all be Bill Clinton's fault. He had sex with an intern....oh my goodness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!WAY worse than breaking every law in the book, causing untold amounts of death and destruction, and tarnishing America's good name all over the world. This president will be looked back on as the worst President in 100 years, if not EVER. (nutty) SeanF, I agree with most of what you said about the environmentalist movement. Some of those folks are wacked out. However, it seems to me, like with most ideas in politics the folks nearest the center usually get there ideas acrooss. Why? Because most of us are somewhere near the center,usually leaning slightly left or slightly right. However, we have been besieged by the wingnuts, which makes me sad to hear you regurgitate what they say. in the end an amazing result and that is a free and peaceful Iraqi democracy We shall see....I mean our grandchildren will see. However, I highly doubt that we will see a free and democratic middle east anytime soon. Its total chaos. George Bush should be given the Nobel Peace prize My wife had to give me CPR just now. Are you serious? A peace prize for starting a war that has cost America over 3,000 lives and at a miniumum 30,000 Iraqi lives. Wow, just wow. I dont think anyone disagrees that Sadaam was a bad dude and should have been overthrown. The issue is how it was done. Preemptive ware, poor planning and unbelievable amounts of war profiteering. Those are my big No-no's. You can understand that no? *Again, not trying to offend anyone. This topic gets me all fired up as I am sure it does a lot of others out there. (rock2) * Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitterbait Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Keep in mind that Bush is the first president to be caught doing these things, i highly doubt he is the only on who has ever done them. the war... how could anyone predict what would happen in Iraq? yes we have lost lives, but our boys knew what they were in for when they signed up for the military... it is not a free ride. as far as election fraud, stem cells, tax policy... that depends on the person. I personally agree with him on many of these points, not all, but many. Do we even need to discuss how many lives have been lost in prior wars? even the drug war has claimed more lives. the fact that we know about every mouse fart in Iraq (thanks to the media) is the main reason that everyone is freaking out. I wonder if the media had the same coverage during WWII would we have pulled out and just let Japan and Germany take over the friggin world? In the end Bush is the only one who had the guts to stand up to these dictators, and you have to admit, while they are somewhat aarogant, most of these other dictators have been a lot more careful. beligerint, but careful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drock59 Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 You are rationalizing now. Prove to me that other presidents have done these things. It public that he has committed several crimes. You claim that others have done what George has done as to offset any blame or guilty....sorry doesnt work for me. how could anyone predict what would happen in Iraq? Are you kidding? Bush did not know the difference between a Sunni and a Shiite. If you are going to start a war, you better damned sure know a lot about the place you are invading. You better have a stellar plan for after the "shock and awe." YOu better damned sure know what you are doing. This Administration failed on ALL accounts. The President is accountable. Those who were knowledgeable about the region and the politics within could have told you this was going to happen. Do we even need to discuss how many lives have been lost in prior wars? Rationalizing again. I am talking about THIS war, not trying to marginalize the losses by comparing them to other wars. WWII was a necessary war. Vietnam and this war were not, hence why we are seeing similar results. In the end Bush is the only one who had the guts to stand up to these dictators, and you have to admit, while they are somewhat aarogant, most of these other dictators have been a lot more careful. beligerint, but careful. He needed to have the guts to stand up against Sadaam Hussein? Doesnt seem like it takes a lot of guts. The guy was under sanction not to mention we obliterated his war machine in the first Gulf War. I am failing to see your point. Maybe it was the connection between 9/11 or terrorists that is a better reason for going into Iraq...........errr wait. our boys knew what they were in for when they signed up for the military I find it offensive that you would insult the intelligence of our troops by saying they knew what they were in for with this illegitimate ware in Iraq. Many joined up riding the wave of sentiment after 9/11 wanting to fight those who perpetrated this crime. Instead they were sent to Iraq to die in a bloodbath that had nothing to do with the terrorists that attacked us, many of which came from Saudi Arabia for crying out loud. election fraud, stem cells, tax policy The election faud is debatable I suppose. However, I believe they were up to no good and pulled some pretty shady stuff. Stem cells? How can you even debate this one. The embryo's are going to be thrown in the trash. Why not use them to help cure some of the worlds most heinous diseases? I am still having trouble figuring that one out. Tax policy? First person EVER in the history of the world to give a tax cut during a war. Seems totally logical and smart. Not to mention that GW gave tax cuts to the wealthiest of the wealthy.....oh thats right, their money is supposed to trickle down to us somehow. How about wiretapping? Seems pretty illegal to me. Especially pre-9/11 wiretapping. FISA CIA agent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecheese Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Love your brother! What a bunch of nonsense. But should I expect more from Trash Talk? But here is an idea. How about we change the way our taxes are spent so that we have a saying on what is being done/our $$ is being used since we disagree. So for instance you will give all your $$ to "support our troop" since you believe it is worth it, and you got that big fat tax break you don't know what to do with in your pocket right?. And I'll use mine to any worthy cause I believe in. Would you support such a resolution? better I challenge you to put a motion at the legislature level to pass such a proposal. Are you game? Do you have guts? In the mean time, if you want to do something meaningful while you are stationed at your computer: e-mail the house and senate in DC and ask to override Bush's veto on the S-Chip. Override the Veto on the NIH research Budget. I am sorry but I cannot suport the financing of a war against a phantom enemy that benefits many wealthy industrials, contractors, allows the government to abuse power, diminish civil liberties etc.. and has clearly no plan in any direction, we are just throwing away billions of $$ and compromising important programs here on US soil that are throwing us back into the dark age (if you don't believe that look at where we rate for health care in the world: #33). But Maybe you don't think health care is important, should we chose who deserve it, based on their wealth?. that would be an interesting idea would it? If you really love your country then open your eyes and see how it is perceived by the rest of the world while the rating is getting lower every day but most importantly we are doing more arms here in the US by neglecting the basics (healthcare, environment, pollution, water quality, food quality, social programs, freedom, civil liberties, and more..) of what a true "compassionate" leadership is about. Leadership is not about guts to do what you (as an oil thirsty millionaire ) think is important but about having the guts to recognize what is best for the people and LISTEN to what they want, and admit when you made a mistake and make the correction. We can't engage into a convenient war (that so far has benefited who ? You? The Iraqis? Or the terrorist? Balckwater, Holyburton? oil companies? certainly not me) while people don't have proper health care, 2.5 million children uninsured, and we are clearly seeing that the rich are getting richer while the middle class (maybe you and me) is just getting flushed down the drain. That is just irresponsiblel and pure arrogance. Bush was wrong on many instance with regard to the Ozone layer, Global warming etc... He ridiculed those ideas so badly that everyone saying Global warming was labeled as a "vegan tree hugger" (I know you like that one:D) short of being anti-patriot for not having the same point of view as the administration. Now that the world has recognized that those are issues we need to adress, what is he doing to adress those issues. HAs he recognized his mistakes and started to put wheels in motions? If he has please let me know of what great program I need to support (or what program you are currently supporting as a matter of fact)? Please, cut the trash talk and try to make a difference if you really care. Send me a progress report of your good deeds in 2 weeks I'll continue supporting awareness of global issues that won't result in more deaths but try to improve the world's harmony. I am counting on you. (laugh) Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitterbait Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 I don't even know where to start... so i won't. My good deeds are mine and mine alone, i don't tout them to anyone. As are my bad deeds. In the end i care about those things that i see as important. I am tired of people giving me crap for what i beleive is right. I beleive that the Iraq conflict is right. yes lives are lost but in the end they will be better off without the dictator they used to have. you know, I would also support bitc* slapping Iran, and even Burma upside the head. The planet will take care of itself. it has survived far worse than anything we could hit it with (assuming you follow the eveloutionary chain of things). personally i don't beleive in evolution per se, I am a religous man. but i think the planet is fine, yes we should reduce pollution (especially 3rd world countries *china*) but in the end i am more concerned about mans inhumanity to man. how we can spend all out time focusing on 1 or 2 degrees when our brothers in humanity are suffering under opression NEXT DOOR. and then we think of ourselves as some kind of great savior of the friggin world while people next door have none of the most basic rights, even the right to live--> (I don't support stem cells because i don't support ABORTION aka the right to live for children). sure, there is corruption in all levels of government, your not gonna fix it. don't kid yourself. that was the problem of marxism and communism, they never took into account the actual attitude of the natural man, to get money and power however possible. we all see that when you put someone in power, most will begin to lord over anyone they can. Even if you were able to root out all the bad and corrupt groups and individuals in the governments of the entire world, their replacements will start the same crap. At one point you need to choose what you will fight against and for, I have chosen the plight of humanites indescretion over the global warming movement because the planet is stronger than all of us. THAT is why i support the war in Iraq and bush along with it. I have my reasons, i don't worship the guy by any means. Now let me ask you, would you give your life if asked, to help free an entire country of oppressed people? I would even if nobody ever knew i did it. but in the end perhaps George Carlin was right when he said that the only reason the earth created humans is because it wanted plastic and needed us to create it... now that it has plastic it's gonna kill us all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitterbait Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 besides, my buddies have informed me of a much more pressing problem than global warming. http://www.dhmo.org/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecheese Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Fair enough (well except for backing up Bush , but he really needs you so lets give that one a rest (clap) ) Hey you are on the right track Twitt. (clap) I do respect your views and I do agree with a fair part of what you said (not all though,). Thanks for clarifying ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecheese Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 For the interested as well as the sceptic here is a chance to have a discussion in Oregon and learn more about this (notice it says Climate change, not Global warming) Howard Frumkin of CDC will give 2 talks in Portland Thursday, November 8 about "Climate Change: Implications for Public Health." 12n: GSA Auditorium, 911 NE 11 Ave [This event is in a secure location (Bonneville); people will have to go through security like at the airport.] 6pm: PSU, Smith Center, Room 327-329, 1825 SW Broadway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 I just want to remind everyone to be civil in their discussions. Opinions can change from time to time, but beliefs are another matter. You are not going to change another persons belief system. Imagine someone trying to change your belief system. How far would they get? Keep this in mind when trying to convince someone to change their beliefs. They will fight for their beliefs tooth and nail... just as you would. Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drock59 Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Chief thanks. I know I am not going to change anyone's beliefs, but my hope is to change on opinion or two. Maybe even a direction of thought. Twitter...you confuse me. 1st confusion: You say you dont like stem cells because it supports abortion. Here is my rationale: if the embryos are going to go into the trash, shouldn't we use them to further medicine instead of discarding them? Im not talking about all the other stuff that goes along with stem cells, just this basic premise. 2nd confusion: You say you are most concerned with mans inhumanity with man, yet you support a war which perpetuates that situation. Dont you think we could help our fellow man a hellofa lot with the billions of dollars we are spending on this war? I bet we could end poverty in this country. Or provide health care to everyone. Or invest in renewable energy which would spur a great deal of economic growth. Maybe we could invest in education so that we see a decline in crime and the number of people in our overly crowded prison system. 3rd confusion: plight of humanites indescretion over the global warming movement because the planet is stronger than all of us. THAT is why i support the war in Iraq and bush along with it. It sounds like you are saying you are choosing to side with those who want to stop oppresion rather than stop global warming. Is that accurate? Either way good for you. However, I get confused why that is the reason you support the war in Iraq and Bush. The reason we went into Iraq was not because Sadaam was mean and oppressive. If was supposed WMDs and supposed links to terrorists....right? There are a lot of other ways to help people in need and to get rid or change oppressive forms of government besides dropping a bomb. I hope you dont feel like I am picking on you, I appreciate the input. I am trying to wrap my head around your arguments. As Chief pointed out, I am having a difficult time doing so. (scratch) Im sure we have a lot of common ground but I have a hard time understanding some of your arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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