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Emerald525

Where did the drama go??

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I apologized to you because your thread got pulled and I felt responsible (I did not realize it was you who pulled it)

 

He didn't pull it, one of the MOD's did and then after discussion they put it back.

Beth

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I Believe that he was violating the map. S0 what happened was right .HOWEVER THERE ARE ALOT MORE PROBLEMS WITH THE local sponsers regarding this club and forum.Dig a little below the surface and you will see that they are behind a lot more than you might think.They are trying to protect there interest. If you don't think they have put pressure on the club

board of directors on certain issues you guys are fooling yourself.

 

I love are LFS , i'm not here to bash them.I shop them %99 and enjoy all the owners.I am a member on other sites were the same thing happens with the sponsers.

BUT THIS IS A NONPROFIT CLUB FOR THE EDUCATION AND PROMOTION OF HELPING SAVE REEF/SALTWATER ANIMALS.

I feel we have a little different responability than other sites.So when it comes down to having sponsors complain about money (and that is all this is about really)it seems like we are way off point.

 

The difference with sponsers like eric / oxx is that they are not trying to make a living %100 on reef items, so it would seem that there would be less problems .I would say though, we could not seperate them if you are a sponsor big or small you would have to be treated the same. If I had my way sponsors would have to be seperate from the club. We could sell space for them to advertise there store at a reduced sponsor price that would be the end.No comments / no influenceing the board.

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Re: Where did the drama go??

 

Sayng this as a member and not a sponsor, but I strongly believe we should do away with the non profit noise and move on to greener pastures. If you note other sites suuch as R2R and even the NCRA which has less than a hundred members and is like less than a year old, are NOT non profit and ARE much nicer....VB software is up to date, games and such available on the site, and so on

 

To me, one of the biggest complications here is the whole "non profit" thing. Maybe a "non profit" site shouldn't allow sponsors as ANY and ALL sponsors ARE for profit. Plus then LFS's won't have to worry about giving those pesky discounts to club members.

 

And before I get flamed for this I DO give discounts to PNWMAS members, keep in mind Reef Central which is by far the largest reefing club or site out there is for profit....and you can't say they aren't doing the same thing we are set out to do in protecting reef's and their inhabitants. R2R charges something like $200 a month or something for sponsors.

 

But, I am curious over where our fee's go....sponsors and members pay fee's yet we have out dated software and I just don't see where the money goes....which leads me to believe SOMEONE IS profiting. I mean is there a thread where all coral and equipment donations are listed? No. So we have no idea what is or was donated or could be sitting in someones tank. That bothers me. Seems doing this without sharing what was donated means you can keep what you want and give away the rest....at the end of the year....at the Xmas party....after they have grown out and could have been fragged....

 

I think all donations should be listed in a thread we can all see to enforce the whole non profit stuff to make sure no one is profiting from our donations and fee's.

 

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Re: Where did the drama go??

 

Not my site....maybe if we were for profit than things such as taxes might not be a problem. No offense but that is a rediculous response....does RC, R2R, RD, NR, NCRA, RF, or any of the other sites as that of their members? No, but....they aren't non profit either.

 

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Eric, this club is a non-profit, plain and simple, if that offends your sensibilities, well, you named a whole bunch of other sites.

 

Running the club as a non-profit org is a way to keep this club cheap for the members and the sponsors. If we decide to become a non non-profit, well, your sponsorships will be increased by quite a large amount, that's one of the benefits of remaining a non-profit, our sponsors sponsorship fee is quite cheap, and you can attest to that yourself I'm sure.

 

 

And, just to clear things up, Gill, the thread was not pulled because of anything you said, I pulled it because I wanted to try and keep the drama rating as low as possible and felt the mods and officers needed to consult before it was allowed to continue.

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Sayng this as a member and not a sponsor, but I strongly believe we should do away with the non profit noise and move on to greener pastures. If you note other sites suuch as R2R and even the NCRA which has less than a hundred members and is like less than a year old, are NOT non profit and ARE much nicer....VB software is up to date, games and such available on the site, and so on

 

To me, one of the biggest complications here is the whole "non profit" thing. Maybe a "non profit" site shouldn't allow sponsors as ANY and ALL sponsors ARE for profit. Plus then LFS's won't have to worry about giving those pesky discounts to club members.

 

And before I get flamed for this I DO give discounts to PNWMAS members, keep in mind Reef Central which is by far the largest reefing club or site out there is for profit....and you can't say they aren't doing the same thing we are set out to do in protecting reef's and their inhabitants. R2R charges something like $200 a month or something for sponsors.

 

But, I am curious over where our fee's go....sponsors and members pay fee's yet we have out dated software and I just don't see where the money goes....which leads me to believe SOMEONE IS profiting. I mean is there a thread where all coral and equipment donations are listed? No. So we have no idea what is or was donated or could be sitting in someones tank. That bothers me. Seems doing this without sharing what was donated means you can keep what you want and give away the rest....at the end of the year....at the Xmas party....after they have grown out and could have been fragged....

 

I think all donations should be listed in a thread we can all see to enforce the whole non profit stuff to make sure no one is profiting from our donations and fee's.

 

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Eric, all the websites that you cited are owned by a person or a corporation.

We are not. They are up for profit, we are online for other goals, which can be found on the links on the homepage.

The non-profit status is not a "noise", but it is the best status we could have.

 

As for the relationship between sponsors and non profit organizations, I do believe that no influence at all should be directed to the board and officers, and I'm not the only one. There are hundreds of books out there about this relationship. In my past experience I've found this one particularly helpful: Ethical Decision Making in Fund Raising by Marilyn Fischer.

I'm new as a board member, but I can assure you that we are constantly working for keeping the right balance. I feel too that sometimes the sponsors are "pushing too much", you can find my point of view about it in the BOD voting poll, when I was answering to Algae's questions.

 

I feel like most of our members do feel the difference between us and a profit driven online community. If they (members, users and sponsors) don't like the way our community is built and acting, they can spend their time and money somewhere else. It is plenty on the www.

 

As for the donations and money, as said I'm new. I don't trust everyone in this website. There are a few people, fortunately just an handful, that I don't trust at all. But I do trust the other members of the BOD, the officers and our president.

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Re: Where did the drama go??

 

Eric' date=' this club is a non-profit, plain and simple, if that offends your sensibilities, well, you named a whole bunch of other sites.[/quote']

 

Take note on how VR's are supposed to interact with vendors. Really makes potential sponsors feel welcome

 

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Take note on how VR's are supposed to interact with vendors. Really makes potential sponsors feel welcome

 

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not the first time.

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And a sponsor is not supposed to attempt to dictate how a club is supposed to be run.

 

We are a non-profit organization, we do NOT do this to make money, we do this to educate people on reefing and provide a community for our fellow reefkeepers. To attempt to do otherwise would mean raising membership fees, and drastically raising sponsorship fees, if you wouldn't mind paying what it would cost to be a sponsor on RC or any of the others, the board will gladly look into raising our fees to their level.

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I personally would like to see someone that has been around more than 9 months telling members and sponsors how things "are gonna be", let alone telling them to go somewhere else if they dont like it.

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I personally would like to see someone that has been around more than 9 months telling members and sponsors how things "are gonna be"' date=' let alone telling them to go somewhere else if they dont like it.[/quote']

 

Not that I am condoning any sharp behavior, but didn't we as a club and as members vote people into these positions? I suppose its like getting a new owner,manager or supervisor. We may not agree with how they do it, or they may have a different path to a common goal or we just respect that they try to put the best interests of the club first.

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Not that I am condoning any sharp behavior' date=' but didn't we as a club and as members vote people into these positions? I suppose its like getting a new owner,manager or supervisor. We may not agree with how they do it, or they may have a different path to a common goal or we just respect that they try to put the best interests of the club first.[/quote']

 

 

Thank you that is very well put. Each situation that arises here (and there seems to always be plenty) has to be dealt with uniquely. There is no one canned response to handle different situations, so we try our best and learn from them. We aren't always right, and someone ends up not being happy because of decisions that are being made. We try our best to keep the majority happy

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Now we are getting somewhere!

 

Here is the link to the mission statement for those of you (like me) who never read it before. I am not trying to be condescending here, I truly never read it and thought others would be interested:

 

http://www.pnwmas.org/cmps_index.php?pageid=mission

 

Main point:

PNWMAS is a not-for-profit society dedicated to the education and husbandry of marine life in a captive environment.

 

Funny I don't see anything this mission that says we must kiss a ss to the sponsors! I hate reef central because that is what they do it is all about money money money!

 

 

 

Sayng this as a member and not a sponsor, but I strongly believe we should do away with the non profit noise and move on to greener pastures. If you note other sites suuch as R2R and even the NCRA which has less than a hundred members and is like less than a year old, are NOT non profit and ARE much nicer....VB software is up to date, games and such available on the site, and so on

 

Reef Central which is by far the largest reefing club or site out there is for profit....and you can't say they aren't doing the same thing we are set out to do in protecting reef's and their inhabitants. R2R charges something like $200 a month or something for sponsors.

 

But, I am curious over where our fee's go....sponsors and members pay fee's yet we have out dated software and I just don't see where the money goes....which leads me to believe SOMEONE IS profiting.

I think all donations should be listed in a thread we can all see to enforce the whole non profit stuff to make sure no one is profiting from our donations and fee's.

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Reef Central Sucks! Really you want this site to be like reef central? !!You have complained repeatedly that you have banned for saying anything against a sponsor on that site?! You really want this to be about greed and less about fun and the benefit of the hobby? I for one do not want to be someone's lacky (that's not what I want to say). My view of the betterment for the hobby is supporting those sponsors that are good for the hobby who are helpful, generally care about the hobby, are reputable, ethical and support this forum. On RC and reef2reef anyone can sale anything at any price and noone can question that? I can sell a half dead acan for 3000 bucks if I can find someone dumb enough to buy it. How is that good for the hobby and the hobbyist?

Regarding membership fees, I believe Jenchild handles this and usually does a report but she has been busy but I trust her completely which is why I voted for her and support her staying on in her role. I agree there should be more accountability with the donations primarily so people know where things are coming from and they do say this at the meetings like Mick said.

 

 

 

 

I love are LFS , i'm not here to bash them.I shop them %99 and enjoy all the owners.I am a member on other sites were the same thing happens with the sponsers.

BUT THIS IS A NONPROFIT CLUB FOR THE EDUCATION AND PROMOTION OF HELPING SAVE REEF/SALTWATER ANIMALS.

I feel we have a little different responability than other sites.So when it comes down to having sponsors complain about money (and that is all this is about really)it seems like we are way off point.

 

The difference with sponsers like eric / oxx is that they are not trying to make a living %100 on reef items, so it would seem that there would be less problems .I would say though, we could not seperate them if you are a sponsor big or small you would have to be treated the same. If I had my way sponsors would have to be seperate from the club. We could sell space for them to advertise there store at a reduced sponsor price that would be the end.No comments / no influenceing the board.

 

I like what you have to say here John but I like having sponsors being able to interact in this forum because it helps me get to know them and seperating them would not keep them from influencing the board at all. There is so much that goes on behind the scenes that never gets posted here. I like having things out in the open.

 

 

Take note on how VR's are supposed to interact with vendors. Really makes potential sponsors feel welcome

 

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Eric, let's have a reality check for a second here. Just because you paid the 50 dollar sponsor fee and call your "company" CA2OR corals, I am willing to bet the majority of the club still views you as a member and not a sponsor. It's fun to play sponsor but really it is no more than a step up from Farmville. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this I am just saying when I refer to a sponsor I am referring to the bigger stores.

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Currently a sponsor is a sponsor, doesnt matter if its petco or eric in his garage. There is nothing different between the two. I think that is an issue that needs to be discussed.

 

Not that I am condoning any sharp behavior, but didn't we as a club and as members vote people into these positions? I suppose its like getting a new owner,manager or supervisor. We may not agree with how they do it, or they may have a different path to a common goal or we just respect that they try to put the best interests of the club first.

 

When you run un opposed?

 

Lets put it this way, do you want a 9 year old tee ball player telling you how to hit a ball or do you want Babe Ruth telling you how to hit a ball.

 

Basically im tired of seeing people get barked at and told how things are by "a 9 year old tee ball player".

 

I have nothing to gain or lose by any of this. Im a person that just takes care of my business, reads, learns and helps when I can. Never met Eric personally, not defending him. Just find it odd that when he does what I have seen numerous others do, he starts taking heat. And I dont even really have issues with that if its from someone that I think has the prowess to do so. Just because you post 500 times a day does not make you a master reefer.

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Well, I think you don't need to be Julian Sprung to read the mission statement and try to follow it as a member and apply it as an officer.

As for the experience as being an old member of the forum it is really useful. So it is the "new" brought by new members. I see our BOD and officers composition perfect in that way.

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First off I am in NO way shape or form saying I want us to be like RC. Just used them as an example.

 

I am not trying to sit with the big boys here as I am not that kinda "company", as I do NOT consider myself anything like that, but don't expect any special treatment either.

 

But when I have been trying to talk Vivid Aquariums, again not that they are super special, but they are large and have a very nice collection, but when trying to bring them over to us it makes me a bit nervous over how they are going to be talked to or handled.

 

And for the record. I joined PNWMAS because I believe in saving our reef's and it's inhabitants....I am not saying sponsors should be sucked up to....but at least showing them the same respect you show a member would be good. I do believe that our BOD has done a good job at holding all of this together and making it run smoothly.....so don't think I am BOD bashing here.

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When you run un opposed?

 

Lets put it this way, do you want a 9 year old tee ball player telling you how to hit a ball or do you want Babe Ruth telling you how to hit a ball?.

 

1. Didn't you and I have the opportunity to recommend for election a different person duing the 2 week long thread?

 

2. Are we basing someones reef experience by their start date here as a member?

 

Not initiating an argument, just setting a level playing field.

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Wow. All of this started from me asking what was up with a vendor pulling their product..

 

Its good that some of this is out in the open but wasn't looking for this to escalate on to other issues.

 

Newfisher has got this right. We voted for each position. Most of which were a land slide or given the position because no one wanted them. Let's see what the bod will so before we start saying things are not being done right. They haven't even been in position for long enough for them to start making changes.

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We need a poll!

 

Well it seems to me we need a poll and now several...(clap)

 

1. How do you as members feel this site should be?

 

2. How do you feel our vendor relations person is doing?

 

3. How do you feel the board is doing?

 

And my favorite

 

4. Do you like farmville?(laugh) I'm just having a little fun Eric nothing personal!

 

Just kidding people I'm not doing a poll

 

and Jesse, this is happening because I think there are things that are bothering people and have gone unsaid and also because people really like their drama! I will have mine with cream and sugar please!(laugh)

 

I also agree there are many new officers and I like the mix of the people we have as officers and board members and agree we should give them a chance.

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1. Didn't you and I have the opportunity to recommend for election a different person duing the 2 week long thread?

 

2. Are we basing someones reef experience by their start date here as a member?

Not initiating an argument, just setting a level playing field.

 

1.Yes we did, and did.

 

2. No im not.

 

Not trying to argue either. just stating an opinion. We all know what opinions are like.

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As a long time member, and now sponsor(though I am unsure how I am viewed and I imagine it varies from person to person) I can say that I have seen this club evolve dramatically. We have grown and diversified quite a bit and have done so with many struggles and much perserverence.

 

I have seen many issues arrise and those issue have been discussed and dealt with by our board, admin, members, etc. in the best way possible for the club. I think this will continue to be the case as there are processes in place to make sure that our mission statement is upheld. We have a great community here and I don't questions its overall intent or ability to achieve our goals in the slightest.

 

Issues between individuals will always arrise and really have nothing to do with the club or how it is run. This is why we are setup with an admin team. When important issues that pertain to the club are discussed, lets do so in a way that is constructive and as much as possible without personal agenda. The club is a non-profit and does a great job of accepting and distributing the contributions we get from sponsors. I have always heard and seen thank you's and vendors listed when things are being auctions, given, or raffled away. Much of this can be found in the minutes though I don't know why one would need to look. I don't see a need to complicate anything more than necessary given our goal as a club. We should put our focus on enjoying/bettering the hobby!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On a side note: It's hard for me to post anything in topics that I don't see heading a positive direction as it usually just feeds the fire even if it is meant to put it out. This is the nature of forumn space in general simply do to the text and emotocons available. A general lack of physical expression and person to person contact makes it hard to get across any message that you are trying to have heard.

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Josh I appreciate your opinions. I think one way to learn is to be open to other people's views.

 

Currently a sponsor is a sponsor' date=' doesnt matter if its petco or eric in his garage. There is nothing different between the two. I think that is an issue that needs to be discussed.[/quote']

 

I get what you are saying. As far as the forum a sponsor is a sponsor. In my eyes (and likely others) there are huge differences between CA2OR corals and say Upscales. I like the idea of there being different levels of sponsorship

 

 

 

 

 

When you run un opposed?

 

Lets put it this way, do you want a 9 year old tee ball player telling you how to hit a ball or do you want Babe Ruth telling you how to hit a ball.

 

Basically im tired of seeing people get barked at and told how things are by "a 9 year old tee ball player".

 

I have nothing to gain or lose by any of this. Im a person that just takes care of my business, reads, learns and helps when I can. Never met Eric personally, not defending him. Just find it odd that when he does what I have seen numerous others do, he starts taking heat. And I dont even really have issues with that if its from someone that I think has the prowess to do so. Just because you post 500 times a day does not make you a master reefer.

 

Not sure what you are talking about with Eric taking heat when others who do the same don't. You have any examples? I don't believe in singling someone out. I do express how I feel and will voice when I don't like something. Sometimes ... I'm sure people feel I do this too much but that's who I am. I also appreciate it when other people speak up too and this thread was to try to encourage people to speak up about how they think their forum should be run. And you are correct posting 500 times a day does not make you a master reefer or I would be a genius. Sometimes the people with the softest voice have the most to say. The saying still waters run deep holds true. As far as Mick being vendor relations. Other people were nominated and declined. Mick also declined but nobody else was willing to step up so he took on the job. That's how it goes with volunteer positions. Mick is honest and not afraid to speak up and voice his opinion (again some will say too much). It is easy to forget when you take on the role of an officer you not only represent yourself you represent the board. This is why I will not ever volunteer to run to be on the board or be an officer. I did appreciate that he was willing to step up to do a job that I was not willing to do. I agree at times he has overstepped at times but during those times I have sent him a pm. For that matter I am very appreciative of all the officers and board members who step up because often it is a thankless job and they get no pay for the work that they do.

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Kim, thanks for your comments, always the voice of reason:D.

 

I was mostly refering to members who have become sponsors and question the ins and outs of things. Eric just always seem to catch the most flack, maybe because hes very outspoken.

 

And yes, Mick took the job that no one else wanted, and I give him alot of credit for that. I just get torqued at some of his responses to people. A bit of humility would do well I think. Im not perfect nor do I think anyone here is, nor do I think people should have to walk on eggshells. But I think as a board member you have to hold yourself to a higher standards. Blasting people for posting improperly in the classifieds for example is out of line. Mick sorry for getting on your case, but I just feel that people that are "in charge" need to be more professional when dealing with us members and sponsors.

 

I do want to make it clear that I do appriciate the job you and the others took on. You guys do a great job keeping this place sane and functioning. I have learned a ton and met great people from this site. Just want to make sure it stays that way. If I didnt care I would not post.

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I made the call last night to close the thread. We had someone go off on the sponsor and that I just didn't feel was right. I'm alright with bringing it back just didn't want it to be attack the lfs thread.

 

See Kim it was the Noob who issued the gag order

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