Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
tidalsculpin

Trying to learn about closed loops.

Recommended Posts

Until you realize that to get the flow you really want and have no equipment in the tank, you need at least a 2" intake which is an ENORMOUS hole in the glass. Or you need at least 2 1.25" intake holes.

 

I wish i had never drilled my tank for CLS.

 

It doesn't create enough flow = more PH in tank anyway.

It creates more heat than just a few PH in the tank.

It leaks.

It takes up a lot more space behind the tank and in the stand than PH.

Its much harder to remove and clean the pump.

Its louder than PHs.

Its permanent.

It costs 3 times what a couple PH do.

 

My opinions are below, because I am still a huge fan of the CL

 

 

It doesn't create enough flow = more PH in tank anyway.

You need a better pump,

It creates more heat than just a few PH in the tank.

A decent CL pump causes very little heat, this isnt true unless your using a shottie pump IMO.

It leaks.

it doesnt leak when done properly, most of the time people use too much force, almost all your plumbing can be hand tight with teflon with zero leaks.

It takes up a lot more space behind the tank and in the stand than PH.

My new tank has about 1" behind it because my loop is through the bottom. This is common for people not wanting to view the huge gap behind there tank.

Its much harder to remove and clean the pump.

Harder to remove? a couple unions and it pulls right now,, usually people have PH stuck behind rocks or far back in the tank, IMO this is far more likely to cause unwanted fraggin. Plus you can run a CL pump for years without it requiring a cleaning (assuming you have good screens)

Its louder than PHs.

Darts are [language filter] near silent. You will get some water in the pipes noise, but PH on a wave maker especially often are very loud, they are heard clicking on and off all the time.

Its permanent.

you can plug your bulkheads easily with PVC plugs.

It costs 3 times what a couple PH do.[/

a good loop can be had for about $350-400. That is more than some maxi jets or seios, but less than 2-3 tunze on a controller, or multiple vortex pumps (so you can have flow going more than one direction)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have thought a lot about doing a CL...

However...

CL are far more expensive to install, maintain and in their energy consumption than good PH's

for example...

Use 2000gph for the circulation and $0.10 per Kwatt.

 

A good CL pump alone cost ~$200-$300 and uses 2-300Watts of energy, an OM 4way is $340 plus the cost of drilling, plumbing, bulkheads and ball valves easily pushes the $800 price. It can be done for less... Will cost you ~$21.00 a month to operate.

 

Tunze 6000 streams with controller cost ~$800, produces 3600gph and only use 36watts of electricity. Will cost you $2.60 a month to operate. Produces more flow that the CL. Will run for 3 days on my battery backup.

In case of a power outage... I would still be fine.

JMO

Bill

Thinking about doing an open loop system for my sump return....

 

 

 

OK I went through this in another thread. I crunched all the numbers with a dart compared to 2 tunze. It would take you 9 years to make up the cost between a dart and 2 tunze from "savings" of power. $21 a month? where did that come from! imagine if it costs $21 a month to run 160 watts of power, my 100w GE light bulbs would cost me a fortune! it cost about $0.34 a day (160w uses 1 kw every 6.25 hours, thats roughly 4 kw per day, at $0.084 per kw, thats $0.34 a day). that comes out to $10 a month.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My new tank has about 1" behind it because my loop is through the bottom. This is common for people not wanting to view the huge gap behind there tank.

 

 

I noticed this part and have a question: how do you do this in a tank with substrate?

Does the intake stick up through the substrate?

And how are the returns positioned?

Any pics?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Have any of you ever run an "open" system with two pumps running submersed in the sump. One for display circulation instead of powerheads and one for overall tank turnover?

 

The problem is that still puts you with too much flow through the sump ( at least to get enough flow for the tank) it will be near impossible to not have microbubbles.

 

IMO sump rate and skimmer skimming rate have nothing to do with each other. I see no reason why there would be any corrilation between the two. Especially if your using a reserc pump, are people only going to run 200gph in sumps now? just doesnt add up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I noticed this part and have a question: how do you do this in a tank with substrate?

Does the intake stick up through the substrate?

And how are the returns positioned?

Any pics?

 

Ill post some photos later, bascially Ive got 2 secitions next to my overflow that have there own little "boxes" like an overflow box. These have a large (4 x 12") hole drilled in each one (square hole). This hole is about 5" up off the bottom, thus sand shouldnt be going in it. These boxes will have screens over them. This also makes it so there is very little suction power from the pumps, which will keep anemones etc from being pulled into it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ill post some photos later' date=' bascially Ive got 2 secitions next to my overflow that have there own little "boxes" like an overflow box. [/quote']

 

Thanks! Looking forward to seeing the photos!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You need a better pump

I researched pump before buying and found iwaki have some of the best reviews out there. I found a Panworld pump (made by former iwaki engineer) and thats what i use. It sucks. You are right there, i need a better pump but i can't rely on any reviews obviously.

 

A decent CL pump causes very little heat, this isnt true unless your using a shottie pump IMO.

Name a decent pump that doesn't put heat into the water for me that i won't have to sell my car to buy.

 

it doesnt leak when done properly, most of the time people use too much force, almost all your plumbing can be hand tight with teflon with zero leaks.

Little known fact is that using teflon tape does not create a seal on the threads. I know, i used teflon tape at every threaded connection and half of them leak. All hand tightened. Teflon paste is better for this application.

 

My new tank has about 1" behind it because my loop is through the bottom. This is common for people not wanting to view the huge gap behind there tank.

The majority of tanks have tempered bottoms so this doesn't apply to most ppls tanks(save for acrylic). Sure would be nice though.

 

Harder to remove? a couple unions and it pulls right now,, usually people have PH stuck behind rocks or far back in the tank, IMO this is far more likely to cause unwanted fraggin. Plus you can run a CL pump for years without it requiring a cleaning (assuming you have good screens)

Yes, but there is water left that leaks out. In my case i have to remove my CA reactor, remove the OM device, and spill about a gallon of water. There is an easy, albeit expensive way to fix this though, true union ball valves.

 

Darts are [language filter] near silent. You will get some water in the pipes noise, but PH on a wave maker especially often are very loud, they are heard clicking on and off all the time.

But you must have a 2" intake for a Dart. Not many ppl feel comfortable with a 4" hole in the glass.

 

you can plug your bulkheads easily with PVC plugs.

Exactly what i did. Looks tacky though.

 

a good loop can be had for about $350-400. That is more than some maxi jets or seios, but less than 2-3 tunze on a controller, or multiple vortex pumps (so you can have flow going more than one direction)

Yah if you shop around, find deals on used equip and don't make a single plumbing error.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, did i come across as cranky? If so don't take it that way, was not meant to be mean or negative, just some of my experiences with these CL. Joel is the man! I was just responding to his response.

 

On a side note i would really like to get mine going. I might buy a smaller return pump and put my current one on the CL, then sell the Panworld. Panworld sucks plain and simple. No customer service, and crappy pumps! Don't believe what you read or hear.

 

Anyone know the max flow thru a 1" pipe anyway? I can't seem to find an answer and i'm assuming about 1000gph max

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would guess more... Lemme look.

 

I can't find anything, I used 1 1/2" for 1200 gph split 3 ways off my dart. I usually go with whats on the pupm output side and taper down from whats on the pump to my splits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Im not even going to argue any of the other points. But as far as matching your skimmer processing to your return pump. You should. I have done fairly extensive experiments proving for myself that your skimmer is more efficient by doing so. Joel...8 months ago i used to not believe it myself. I figured as long as your skimmer is processing the same amount of water, who cares how much water the return pump is moving.

 

Wrong. I started the experiments with the idea in mind that i was going to prove the people who said they need matched wrong. I failed. I proved them right. If you want me to go into detail on how i did these experiments I can do so. Moral to the story that when processing dirtier water your going to get more nasties out overall instead of processing cleaner, already skimmed water.

 

On that same token i dont really think the "recirculating" concept in skimmers is worth a crap....its just wasting energy (treading water if you will)that could be spent on processing dirtier/unskimmed water.

 

A cls is not cheaper top run than powerheads, not even close. But a cls done right can do better everywhere flow than a bunch of powerheads in the tank and have far less maintenance. Tunze on a controller included if you spend a fairly equal amount of money on the systems.

 

And the most important thing IMO is i dont want to look at powerheads or even plumbing in my reefs. I just want reef. If that costs 2-3(or more) times as much in electricity.....so be it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only time I don't agree is when there is lots of free floating contaminants. I had HA and had to pump up the turnover of my sump because I wanted to add and use effectively more mechanical filtration, this essentially helped remove free floating hair algae that was dying off, also another great idea if you used flatworm exit to increase carbon and worm removal for short periods of time. I would match but make you system capable of pushing more water for emergency situations like needing more mechanical filtration, but only if necessary. Plus it never hurts to overbuild.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i did what melev did with pvc and its works awesome i just hear a small hum and its putting 1200 gph through my system with no problem i wish i had gone with a pan world or a blue line so it would cut energy and noise but this genx 40 is flippin awesome i alspo drilledf my other tank and the bulheads never leak so no complains here

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You need a better pump

I researched pump before buying and found iwaki have some of the best reviews out there. I found a Panworld pump (made by former iwaki engineer) and thats what i use. It sucks. You are right there, i need a better pump but i can't rely on any reviews obviously.

 

 

 

A decent CL pump causes very little heat, this isnt true unless your using a shottie pump IMO.

Name a decent pump that doesn't put heat into the water for me that i won't have to sell my car to buy.

Sequence Snapper, at only 100 watts, and not submerged will add next to nothing for heat. 2500 gph (not sure what you need) at $185

it doesnt leak when done properly, most of the time people use too much force, almost all your plumbing can be hand tight with teflon with zero leaks.

Little known fact is that using teflon tape does not create a seal on the threads. I know, i used teflon tape at every threaded connection and half of them leak. All hand tightened. Teflon paste is better for this application. could be Ive never used the paste. although what about it getting into the water column?

 

My new tank has about 1" behind it because my loop is through the bottom. This is common for people not wanting to view the huge gap behind there tank.

The majority of tanks have tempered bottoms so this doesn't apply to most ppls tanks(save for acrylic). Sure would be nice though. I prefer glass over acrylic anyday. I think when you get upto 125gal or larger the bottoms are not tempered. I dont think anything on Oceanic is tempered but I could be wrong.

 

Harder to remove? a couple unions and it pulls right now,, usually people have PH stuck behind rocks or far back in the tank, IMO this is far more likely to cause unwanted fraggin. Plus you can run a CL pump for years without it requiring a cleaning (assuming you have good screens)

Yes, but there is water left that leaks out. In my case i have to remove my CA reactor, remove the OM device, and spill about a gallon of water. There is an easy, albeit expensive way to fix this though, true union ball valves. I agree true union ball valves are perfect. I did discover Lows has 1.5" for $22 (i think it was) and 2" for $35, it also saves on the length of the plumbing if in a smaller space.

 

Darts are [language filter] near silent. You will get some water in the pipes noise, but PH on a wave maker especially often are very loud, they are heard clicking on and off all the time.

But you must have a 2" intake for a Dart. Not many ppl feel comfortable with a 4" hole in the glass. you do not need to use a 2" intake, and the hole size is 3", you can actually run 1" in and 3/4 out on a dart, it will simply consume less power and have less flow. Darts can safely be dialed back to 400gph without any risk to the pump, smaller plumbing will lower the flow, but they have pretty mad flow as it is.

 

you can plug your bulkheads easily with PVC plugs.

Exactly what i did. Looks tacky though. I suppose if you can see them your totally right. Mine (on my new tank) will all be covered with rock etc so I could hide them easily. Get some GSP and glue em on :)

 

a good loop can be had for about $350-400. That is more than some maxi jets or seios, but less than 2-3 tunze on a controller, or multiple vortex pumps (so you can have flow going more than one direction)

Yah if you shop around, find deals on used equip and don't make a single plumbing error. $225 for a dart, $60 for true unions (more expensive route), $50 for bulkheads still leaves you $75 for asst plumbing

 

see above in Red, wont let me post without writing something here...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think when you get upto 125gal or larger the bottoms are not tempered. I dont think anything on Oceanic is tempered but I could be wrong.

My new 125g All-Glass brand aquarium has a tempered bottom and so was my 135g (unknown brand, but trusted the sticker they posted on the bottom to not drill). If I remember correctly from their site, you can special order All-Glass brand aquariums with plate bottoms and also get predrilled holes from the factory!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think pretty much all AGA tanks have tempered bottoms. At least in moderate sizes

Here's copy from AGA Faq's page.

 

Can I drill holes in my aquarium for external filters?

 

Maybe, many of our aquariums are made with tempered glass in the bottom. Tempered glass cannot be drilled. Non-tempered glass panels may be drilled by a qualified technician. In some cases, you may special order All-Glass aquariums pre-drilled with the MegaFlow or Twin-Flow overflow systems. You could also special order, in some cases, an aquarium with non-tempered glass if you wanted to have it drilled outside of our facility. If you have an older tank that you want to drill, don’t take any chances - if you are not sure that the glass is non-tempered, do not drill it.

------------------------------------------------

Does All-Glass make custom aquariums?

 

We can accommodate some special order situations. At All-Glass, our primary business deals with stock size aquariums that ranging from 2 ½ gallons through 210 gallons. Most people are able to find a tank in that range that will fit their needs. We do drill tanks and install overflow boxes on a regular basis. We are also able to make some modifications to pre-existing stock sizes such as making a tank with a different height than a stock size. Special orders do take a little longer than stock sizes to complete and will involve additional charges. Please consult your dealer with specific questions. Please note: We do not manufacture custom aquarium outside of the standard footprint of our aquariums. Please contact Oceanic Systems for custom aquariums outside our standard footprint.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what about oceanic tanks? I would love to drill the bottom of my 40 gal stretch hex but unsure if its tempered. Oceanic never returned my emails and it didnt come with a sticker in it saying whether it was tempered or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[language filter] Joel you really do rock! Can you really plumb a dart with 1"!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Dude i almost bought a dart but i thought i HAD to have a 2" intake. Here is what killed the idea for me.

 

P1010003.jpg

 

P1010004.jpg

 

The hole for this bulkhead is 4". I just didn't feel comfortable with that large of a hole in my glass. So i bought the Panworld because of the great reviews. Well its got a 1" intake and a 1" output, but you have to restrict the flow at least 50% to get it to stop cavitating. I've talked to several other ppl who have the same problem with this pump. So instead of the 1200gph i wanted i get maybe 500. If i can plumb a dart to my existing 1" intake and just throttle it back to roughly 1000gph i think i would be so happy i'd faint.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You bet man, I thought I should have posted my response on here instead of the LPP thingamajig,,

 

I would screw a 1.25" female adapter onto your bulkhead (you should be able to find an elbow with female threads) then go upto 1.5" upto the pump, many of the darts I recieve now a days come with a reducer down to 1.5" standard in the box. Then run 1" for your outputs, I think this would yeild the best flow for your sized bulkheads.

 

You must have a odd bulkhead, even at sch80 2" that I carry are a 3" hole.

 

Id always run 2 x 1.5" if you were designing it from scratch, they are much easier to find screens for (like the flat spa style I sell) and combine them into a 2" pipe. the only think Id use a 2" bulkhead is for the intake when running a dart on the sump, then you dont care so much about suction power or the looks of the screens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
what about oceanic tanks? I would love to drill the bottom of my 40 gal stretch hex but unsure if its tempered. Oceanic never returned my emails and it didnt come with a sticker in it saying whether it was tempered or not.

 

I called my vendor for another question about Oceanic, Ill see if he can find out for me. Do you know if your tank is the "contrast collection"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok so close loop is the way to go. Nice pump, pvc, bulkheads, strategic drilling placement. I think I'm confused. Has anyone ever tried running circulation up in the canopy? Seems like you could avoid drilling and cut down on microbubbles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×