flatworms

[powdertang05]

ok i just got some corals and i noticed small i mean small brown flatworms now this is going to sound silly but this is my first flatworm since i began this hobby about 5 years ago now is this the bad one or not? i check on reefcentral and they are all brown and all flippin brown. so what i did was with the one coral that was infected i jetted it in a tank with nothing in it too see what they were for observation. now second question who's got flatworm exit???????? scratch that idea got tmpcc at coral reef thanks jason

[reefboy]

if there acro eating flatworms exit dont work tmpcc will get them to come off coral but you have to look for the eggs because it wont effect eggs, so they must be scraped off or fraged away.

[powdertang05]

how do you tell if they are the arco eating ones they are just brown. i think they are the algea ones

[izzypop]

The acro ones you can't see very well. The ones I've delt with are clear and not brown. The brown ones are the standard flatworm that FWE will work on. Here you go
http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=362

[powdertang05]

all better now i dipped them all with tmpcc and also wth lug's everything is all good now thanks everyone especially jason! love coral reef

[SULLY]

You are goimg to make me cry. But i also want to thank you for the help you have given me with things at the store. Hopefully we can figure an easier way to get rid of thes little bastard bugs without having to pull a whole tank apart.

Jason

[impur]

If one of your SPS frags has AEFW, others do too. AEFW are usually brown in color or they change color to match the coral they are eating. They have the exact same pattern on them that the flesh of the coral has. They are darn near impossible to see on the coral itself. One way to see them is to let the coral sit out of the tank for about 10 min to dry out some. The FW will still appear wet after that. Another way is to hold the coral in front of a powerhead to blast them off the coral.

I have never seen a normal FW on any SPS corals. They might travel around the base, but they almost never climb onto the actual coral.

If it was an AEFW, you aren't out of the woods yet i'm sorry to say.

[powdertang05]

well i found two differernt ones i found the aefw on frags and also the normal algea ones on the base of the frag eating at some algea and when i blasted them off the ones on the bottom instantly went to the glass and went after some algea the others that were more invisable were ate by a pair of sixlines well some atleast i blasted them both off into a tank with no other frag just that pair i was just wanting to study them. most are died now in total about 15 off the frag and about 8 or so of the algea ones no visable problems with the death of them but did a small water change for good measure.

[powdertang05]

as a side note i think most of us this this is really really scary but to tell you the truth this is kinda fun to me i like playing with corals and seeing them happy after we do dips, if know what i mean like having a coral that all pissed off turning brown then RTNing then after you find them through investigating you treat them see the death and pain of the buggers then see that coral instantly happy and fully out with in hours or days it kinda has a really good feeling. was about the same fun as the first time i had red bug on a acro colony. kinda wierd but still alot of fun.

[DChemist]

as a side note i think most of us this this is really really scary but to tell you the truth this is kinda fun to me i like playing with corals and seeing them happy after we do dips, if know what i mean like having a coral that all pissed off turning brown then RTNing then after you find them through investigating you treat them see the death and pain of the buggers then see that coral instantly happy and fully out with in hours or days it kinda has a really good feeling. was about the same fun as the first time i had red bug on a acro colony. kinda wierd but still alot of fun.

I know exactly what you mean- to see my favorite coral, bleached and getting overtaken by algae was too much. But then to take some action to help them recover and be successful is a lot of fun.

[powdertang05]

sweet im not alone i love sps's

[giant squid]

so maybe i'm extremely lucky or something, but i've given up on trying to get all the brown acoel worms out of my reef tank. I've been living with them for over a year now with no reprocussions to the heath of the coral. They've never been on the coral itself, just around them, and don't seem to bother anything. Am i crazy??? Or can you acheive a "healthy" reef tank with aceol worms coexisting with the other animals?

[impur]

Yah they don't bother corals unless their population gets way out of hand. And even then theywould only bother corals by sitting on them.

I added a mandarin to my tank last month and can't find any FW now ;)

[giant squid]

here is one of our tanks that has been running for 18 months with brown acoel flatworms. The coral thus far have never seemingly been affected in any way. Normal growth, and asexual reproduction in some of the coral has not been impeded. maybe a bit lucky, but the only time i have ever seen them directly on the coral is when there was existing dead tissue spots on them. Otherwise they just hang around the base.

[impur]

Now thats a lot of FW! I wonder if there is really enough food for all of them? I'd think eventually their population would crash as their numbers get out of hand.

[reefboy]

Now thats a lot of FW! I wonder if there is really enough food for all of them? I'd think eventually their population would crash as their numbers get out of hand.

unfortunatly no they are photosynthetic so as long as theres light theyll keep growing a replacing those that die off.

[giant squid]

I just put in a velvet sea slug to possibly help bring the population down a little. So six line wrasses are supposed to nibble on them too?

[SeanF]

I notice that you would do not have any sps corals pictured. Those flatworms dont generally bother anything but sps. Drop an Sps frag in there and see how long it lasts. My guess would be not long.

[giant squid]

I notice that you would do not have any sps corals pictured. Those flatworms dont generally bother anything but sps. Drop an Sps frag in there and see how long it lasts. My guess would be not long.

Well the acro slimer, acro milli, acro nasuto, pocillopora, Turbinaria, and three colour morphs of digitata that are in the tank would beg to differ, but they are in a higher area of the tank where the flow is greater, and not as many flatworms hang out there, but they are still there.

It sounds like you had a run in with these little buggers, i feel your pain man, but maybe you had the predatory flatworms.? Dunno. (scratch)

[SeanF]

Yes I have had a run in with these buggers well in the past before I knew what they were. They are one of the reasons we do not take in corals from local people. I have had customers of mine that have picked these nice little critters that they have picked up from other stores in town that shall remain nameless. Then they started having problems with mysterious sps colony death. Colonies just bleaching overnight and once they treated with flatworm exit and killed the little buggers the problem stopped. Maybe you haven't had any problems as of yet but it will happen I can only hope that you don't decide to trade anything in that tank with any one else and spread that plague. Ohh and by the way Turbinaria is an LPS coral.

[reefboy]

Yes I have had a run in with these buggers well in the past before I knew what they were. They are one of the reasons we do not take in corals from local people. I have had customers of mine that have picked these nice little critters that they have picked up from other stores in town that shall remain nameless. Then they started having problems with mysterious sps colony death. Colonies just bleaching overnight and once they treated with flatworm exit and killed the little buggers the problem stopped. Maybe you haven't had any problems as of yet but it will happen I can only hope that you don't decide to trade anything in that tank with any one else and spread that plague. Ohh and by the way Turbinaria is an LPS coral.

not to step on toes but those flat worms do not eat acro's and ill say one more time there photo synthetic ,acro flatworms live on acro's you will not see them on your sand bed or rock work and flatworm exit does not kill them, so if you had these type they were not the cause of your sps death unless you had both at same time and if flat worm exit got rid of one type you still have the others.

[SeanF]

I did not say acropora in general and I do know the difference between aefw and regular flatworms and I have never had aefw just regular flatworms and that was several years ago. I got them from local people bringing in corals and that is the reason why I do not do that any more. I know your opinion that they are photosynthetic but I can tell you that I have talked to a lot of people that have had sps death due to Red Flatworms not aefw. We are talking deaths in Hydnophora, Montipora, and other SPS varieties. Even if you do not believe that they are eating sps they are a dangerous parasite that if they die will cause problems in your aquarium. Parasites are the number one reason why captive raised corals are probably a long way from becoming common place in the aquarium trade. The kind of don't care attitude that I have seen from many people and the lack of proper quarantine procedures contribute to this. These parasites will kill sps corals regardless of what you think.

[RoseCityAquarium]

"Ohh and by the way Turbinaria is an LPS coral"


The Turbinaria Corals can be considered small polyp stony (SPS) or large polyp stony (LPS), depending upon the variety

[reefboy]

all your parisites as you say came from the wild they just didnt show up in aqauculture facilty's so you should chreat any coral be it cultured or not this way and thats up to you if you dont want to take in outside corals.If preventive measure are taken you should never have prob's but things will slip by even you cant quarantee your stock is parasite free if you do ill laugh.Also these flat worms propagate by devision they dont lay eggs so are easy to eradicate with flatworm exit if proper percaustions are taken when doing so acro eating flat worms lay eggs wich do not get killed by tmpcc dip so you either have to scrap off or frag above same goes with montipora eating nudis also i dont doubt that these flatworms can kill sps corals but the only way is by iffestations being so bad they are covering corals to hinder there light.

[reefboy]

oh and dog capitive raised because of so called parasites is insane its other way around IMO and that ill stand behind.

[giant squid]

Yes I have had a run in with these buggers well in the past before I knew what they were. They are one of the reasons we do not take in corals from local people. I have had customers of mine that have picked these nice little critters that they have picked up from other stores in town that shall remain nameless. Then they started having problems with mysterious sps colony death. Colonies just bleaching overnight and once they treated with flatworm exit and killed the little buggers the problem stopped. Maybe you haven't had any problems as of yet but it will happen I can only hope that you don't decide to trade anything in that tank with any one else and spread that plague. Ohh and by the way Turbinaria is an LPS coral.

So liquid sunshine had flatworms for awhile, and i might have gotten the worms from there, but i'm also familiar with the risks associated with buying living animals and the hitchhikers that may possibly tag along for the ride. Even if someone guaranteed the animal to be safe and clean when purchased, the risk still exists NO MATTER WHAT. That's the risk a consumer takes.

I'm sorry i'm not as knowledgeable as you on the subject matter, but that's why i write to others here to get their opinions on what i can do about the situation, not to be told my corals are doomed and i'm wrong about an id on a coral. (flame)

I love the option of being able to trade or buy/sell or get credit for corals that i raise at home. I believe that is great motivation for more people to grow coral at home, and makes the hobby more fun and educational. What better way to delve into a specific troubleshooting issue than for one to exist and to try to remedy it? Better to not exist at all, of course but all of us have had some problem at some point.

I think the situation sounds extreme, but you say the sps coral had bleached overnight due to brown flatworms, and i say i'll get back to you in another 18 months and let you know if my coral are dead yet.

[DChemist]

I haven't seen any negative affects to any of my tank inhabitants- including the sps.
http://www.pnwmas.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3585

[reefboy]

Boy im glad i didnt open this can of flatworms lol:D

[SeanF]

First I didn't say that you couldn't get coral parasites from wild corals but the risk is much less than captive raised corals because good quarantine practices are not followed. I am not saying that I am perfect in this but we do preventative treatments in our reef tanks and freshwater dips on new corals. To wait until there is a problem is too long.

As a hobby we need to take this problem much more seriously. All you have to do is to read forums from around the country. This is a very serious problem and obviously by the attitude that I have seen here it will continue to be a problem. It is good not to take for granted that anything is parasite free no matter what the source but the person that is growing the corals needs to take responsibility for taking every precaution to make sure that what they are trading or selling is clean and free of parasites. If we as a hobby cannot do a better job of this captive raised corals will never be able to a realistic alternative to wild caught.

As far as Liquid Sunshine having flatworms I was not directly refering to them but every store in town that has had a problem with these. The biggest problem with parasites was at Symbiosis but luckily they went out of business.

I am glad we are able to have this discussion and hopefully it will lead to better quarantine procedures for everything that you put in your aquarium. There are people on this board that support my point of view on these flatworms as they have had sps death due to this plague but choose not to post.

[reefboy]

I give up beleive what you will but what i know is i can get cultured stuff anyday and usaly are parasite free there are exseptions but i can get wild stuff in and acro's have teddy bear crabs and zoa have sundails and lps and leathers have flatworms so to say cultured Corals are the problem is, one misinfomation and,two unvarified gossip just because youve had some bad stuff come in is no reason to blame culturing corals as to cause of parasite problems.

[giant squid]

First I didn't say that you couldn't get coral parasites from wild corals but the risk is much less than captive raised corals because good quarantine practices are not followed. I am not saying that I am perfect in this but we do preventative treatments in our reef tanks and freshwater dips on new corals. To wait until there is a problem is too long.

As a hobby we need to take this problem much more seriously. All you have to do is to read forums from around the country. This is a very serious problem and obviously by the attitude that I have seen here it will continue to be a problem. It is good not to take for granted that anything is parasite free no matter what the source but the person that is growing the corals needs to take responsibility for taking every precaution to make sure that what they are trading or selling is clean and free of parasites. If we as a hobby cannot do a better job of this captive raised corals will never be able to a realistic alternative to wild caught.

As far as Liquid Sunshine having flatworms I was not directly refering to them but every store in town that has had a problem with these. The biggest problem with parasites was at Symbiosis but luckily they went out of business.

I am glad we are able to have this discussion and hopefully it will lead to better quarantine procedures for everything that you put in your aquarium. There are people on this board that support my point of view on these flatworms as they have had sps death due to this plague but choose not to post.

If you are so big on quarantine procedures, why would it matter where they came from, be it wild collected or from a customer? Maybe i'm confused.
You know, as you say, parasites are the number one reason that the trade of tank raised coral will not advance, but if you never take in coral from people, that could propably have an impact too.

Thanks for the great conversation sean, and everyone, i wish you all the best as always...:D

[SeanF]

Why should I take the risk on a coral that has a good probability of having parasites when I can get one that in my experience has much less of a chance of having it. I would love to be able to take in tank raised corals but until the attitude towards the control of parasites changes I choose not to take that chance. Obviously there is always a risk but this is all about playing the odds and taking every precaution I can. I make my living doing this and am not willing to risk that on taking in one coral.

I have read the stuff online about how they are harmless but I can tell you that I know of more than half a dozen people that have had problems with sps death due to these parasites. Maybe corals isn't there prefered food or maybe there are species that are very similar in appearance but look at one of your pictures again. You state that they are not on your corals unless there is dead tissue but look at the circled areas in your photo. There are flatworms on the coral and the polyps are closed.

My question is why wouldn't you take every opportunity to keep a questionable species under control. With as fast as those things reproduce they cannot possibly be good. We all know the golden rule of reef tanks that nothing good ever happens fast in a reef tank. I am just advocating better quarantine procedures by everyone and a greater awareness of the problems that are wide spread with tank raised corals at this time. If you don't think they are widespread go to some of the major boards and look around. I keep an eye on several club boards around the country and parasites are becoming a major problem.

[giant squid]

Why should I take the risk on a coral that has a good probability of having parasites when I can get one that in my experience has much less of a chance of having it. I would love to be able to take in tank raised corals but until the attitude towards the control of parasites changes I choose not to take that chance. Obviously there is always a risk but this is all about playing the odds and taking every precaution I can. I make my living doing this and am not willing to risk that on taking in one coral.

I have read the stuff online about how they are harmless but I can tell you that I know of more than half a dozen people that have had problems with sps death due to these parasites. Maybe corals isn't there prefered food or maybe there are species that are very similar in appearance but look at one of your pictures again. You state that they are not on your corals unless there is dead tissue but look at the circled areas in your photo. There are flatworms on the coral and the polyps are closed.

My question is why wouldn't you take every opportunity to keep a questionable species under control. With as fast as those things reproduce they cannot possibly be good. We all know the golden rule of reef tanks that nothing good ever happens fast in a reef tank. I am just advocating better quarantine procedures by everyone and a greater awareness of the problems that are wide spread with tank raised corals at this time. If you don't think they are widespread go to some of the major boards and look around. I keep an eye on several club boards around the country and parasites are becoming a major problem.

Well, i can certainly respect your point of view, i wish you all the best .
As far as my coral goes, that piece has been in there for about 4 months now, and i have never noticed anything weird about it till you pointed it out. The polyps aren't always like that, and when i went to double check it after your post, i didn't see anything.

But then i woke up the next morning and sure enough there was something there. They look different then the brown guys though, do they in fact change color when on a coral? Or are these an other type of flatworm?

They still aren't feeding on the tissue i would guess cuz by now i would imagine there would be tissue necrosis and i don't see that, only poyps retracted and not all the time. Hmmm...

What do you think?

[giant squid]

now i'm looking at the coral and all the polyps are out, and not a weird thing to be found on it.

what the..?

[R2R2]

Although the environmental pressures placed on captive aquaculture do predispose those items to predation by pathogens and parasites, we, above all other groups, must recognize the value and need for mariculture. The solution is better quarentine protocols, husbandry skills, and communication between aquarists.(this does not include silly internet arguements!) We need to make captive aquaculture work. Be a productive member of the effort. Ryan

[giant squid]

I must have learned about "silly arguments" managing the zebrafish research nursery at the U of O cuz the scientific academia politics were purely insidious. And small arguments (if that's what they were) were synonymous with small advancements in research, in fact some researchers only understood you when you were at your wit's end. Strange, huh? Maybe these methods were unorthodox, but they certainly were commonplace.

I couldn't agree with you more ryan, quarantine protocols, husbandry skills, and communication between aquarists are essential to advance sustainable mariculture practices, and i certainly don't write to these forums in hopes of living vicariously through an alternative ornamental fish sewing cirlce, i am simply a hobbyist looking for some straight answers.

Thanks for the motivation.

-J.>>(

[giant squid]

oh by the way, did i read somewhere that some flatworms change color when they are on coral?

[R2R2]

The "AEFW", which seem to be broken into "egg laying" and "non-egg laying" varieties, have nearly clear bodies with fine striations that mimic the patterns of the host coral. These little fellas are perfectly adapted to feed on their acropora prey without detection. Even close magnified viewing of the coral underwater does not make obvious these critters. The first time I saw them, I was resorting to "Fluke Tab" dips of a staghorn type acro. None were visible but the coral had been bleaching for several weeks without a lighting or water chemistry explaination. I disolved 4 tabs in 5 gallons of tank water and began the dip with some strong jets of water from my trusty turkey baster(?SP). I pulled the coral out of the dip and, to my shock and disbelief, found 50-75 various sized flatworms on the floor of the dip basin. Only after the dip was I able to see the AEFW. I have used both Iodine based coral dips and Fluke Tabs, and I can say that with both,if you pour out the medication and replace with frest tank water, at least some of the AEFW survive. Serial dips and good quarentine is the only way to destroy the infestation. I regularly break off frags and dip them to see if the AEFW have returned, because I am sure I will see them again. They are everywhere. Many of us have had them and are afraid to say. I bet we will see more and more folks doing battle with these little buggers.
As a store owner, we are more careful today but we all need to do our part. Set up a quarentine tank and use it. Ryan

[giant squid]

cool man, i really appreciate the information. It helps understand these buggers a little more in detail which is exactly what i'm trying to learn about.

Thanks again,

-J.>>(

[izzypop]

The "AEFW", which seem to be broken into "egg laying" and "non-egg laying" varieties, have nearly clear bodies with fine striations that mimic the patterns of the host coral. These little fellas are perfectly adapted to feed on their acropora prey without detection. Even close magnified viewing of the coral underwater does not make obvious these critters. The first time I saw them, I was resorting to "Fluke Tab" dips of a staghorn type acro. None were visible but the coral had been bleaching for several weeks without a lighting or water chemistry explaination. I disolved 4 tabs in 5 gallons of tank water and began the dip with some strong jets of water from my trusty turkey baster(?SP). I pulled the coral out of the dip and, to my shock and disbelief, found 50-75 various sized flatworms on the floor of the dip basin. Only after the dip was I able to see the AEFW. I have used both Iodine based coral dips and Fluke Tabs, and I can say that with both,if you pour out the medication and replace with frest tank water, at least some of the AEFW survive. Serial dips and good quarentine is the only way to destroy the infestation. I regularly break off frags and dip them to see if the AEFW have returned, because I am sure I will see them again. They are everywhere. Many of us have had them and are afraid to say. I bet we will see more and more folks doing battle with these little buggers.
As a store owner, we are more careful today but we all need to do our part. Set up a quarentine tank and use it. Ryan

I agree. The dips don't kill them 100%. When you get good at seeing them or have a colony completely infested you can actually see some survive the process. Then we bred AEFW's that are more resistant to meds. I can say since I have been watching for them a lot of locals have AEFW's whether they know it or not. I don't care anymore they are not that bad once you get a handle on them. You get to know there favorite corals and now I just blast them off I don't even dip them anymore. new frags get dips though or unless they are completely infested.
My conclusion on this:
I still don't think most people even understand the difference between the harmless brown ones and the AEFW's. You almost have to see the AEFW's and there damage to understand what people are talking about. I wish the acro flatworms were called something else like "clear bugs" so we can educate people that they are two entirely different things. The word "flatworm" gets said and everyone instantly gets confused because some are talking brown ones, some talking clear ones and most people take the two, mix them together and have no real experience and post nonsense.

[robz]

Does someone have a picture of any of the worms? I have recently started dabbleing in SPS and don't even know what to look for.

[cyenna]

Here is a nice collection of photos: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fltwmid.htm

and here is another one for acropora eating bugs: http://www.melevsreef.com/aefw.html

[izzypop]

along with those pics here are pics of the eggs. you got these you got problems...http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e146/ssutliff/aefw.jpg

[chewie]

great shot! that don't look good.

[reef165]

here is one of our tanks that has been running for 18 months with brown acoel flatworms. The coral thus far have never seemingly been affected in any way. Normal growth, and asexual reproduction in some of the coral has not been impeded. maybe a bit lucky, but the only time i have ever seen them directly on the coral is when there was existing dead tissue spots on them. Otherwise they just hang around the base.

have you been able to get rid of them yet? them being the brown acoel flatworms.you may not beleave but ive seen the sure fire way to get rid of them totally! Just do nothing, it takes 6 to 8 months and they just seem to get worse -n- worse but they one day will just start dying off and in a couple days nothing and never to return, unless introduced again of course.

[impur]

Sounds like you are describing a population crash where their numbers multiply to the point that there is not enough food to support them all. I would be willing to bet that not all of them are gone, and in another 6-8 months you will see another buildup in their population.

[reef165]

nope, its been almost a year and his tank has not one in it still.