130 gallon tidepool at school

[tidalsculpin]

So, I am well on my way to building the tidepool in my classroom. Thanks to several people here at PNWMAS and the help of some very generous donors like Envision Acrylics the tank is taking shape.

Here is a link to the great help I got in the Fall.
http://www.pnwmas.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2212&highlight=tidepool

I applied for a permit from ODFW for collection and received it December 18th.
http://161.55.120.155/pdf/3822.html

Here are pics of the tank construction by James and a schematic of filtration.
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/tidalsculpin/th_PICT0973.jpg (http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/tidalsculpin/PICT0973.jpg)
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http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/tidalsculpin/th_TidepoolSchematicv2.jpg (http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/tidalsculpin/TidepoolSchematicv2.jpg)

I have built the skeleton of the stand and am in the process of plumbing now. I'll post pics of some of this process tomorrow. I want to get the tank running soon to get it properly cycled and ready for life. Kids will be doing intertidal zone reports in early March. I hope to have it rockscaped and crawling with animals by then.
Joel

[JManrow]

While your tank is cycling, be sure to leave the chiller off, otherwise you will have a long wait. Looks like a nice setup. I would use some dry baserock in the sump chamber, rather than bioballs. While it would not have the initial bacteria present for denitrification, it will soon become established with aerobic/anaerobic bacteria. Another option would be lava rock or Cell-Pore. http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/month.200103/msg00771.html I'm not sure how effective the live rock found on our Coast is, at least for keeping nitrates down, as it is often very dense and non-porous. I once used the gray, glass-like, light-weight "feather rock" that is popular for landscaping, in the sump of a Discus tank. I had very good results with it and it was very inexpensive.

[tidalsculpin]

I have some feather rock from a previous project. Great idea. What do you use to cycle? Ammonium chloride? Shrimp method? Some cycle product?

BTW here is where I am at as of today:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/tidalsculpin/th_PICT0120.jpg (http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/tidalsculpin/PICT0120.jpg)
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http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/tidalsculpin/th_PICT0111.jpg (http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/tidalsculpin/PICT0111.jpg)

[Nyles]

I have access to quite a bit of dry rock, well chat when you come by.

[Michael7979]

This will be a great teaching tool!

Good luck getting the kids away from it to teach them anything else!!

[tidalsculpin]

yeah lol--my other tanks too. I have three running right now. The plant tank is boring. The reef has probably 30 visitors a day. I have 200 kids in my room each day. That is a lot of fingers in the tank.

[JManrow]

I have some feather rock from a previous project. Great idea. What do you use to cycle? Ammonium chloride? Shrimp method? Some cycle product?


I set it up on an already established tank, so the run-in time went very quickly.
Any of those methods will work. Maybe you could use a combination of those methods?
I once cycled a new tank with some freshly shucked oyster shells from a seafood company. You could probably get a live oyster at the seafood counter at the grocery store for about 50 cents each or so, & toss it in. Hey - it might even survive the cycling... either way, it has a better chance than it's buddies back in the seafood section!:D

[Ronjunior]

I have 200 kids in my room each day. That is a lot of fingers in the tank.
This might be a good candidate for Tour De Tanks 2007 and more fingers. Does the janitor work weekends? (naughty)

[tidalsculpin]

I work weekends! I am a teacher.(rock2)

[vanz]

Man, that is one sweet tank! Since this is an open top, does the janitor know not to use chemicals around?

[Barelycuda]

Very cool project. Can't wait to see how it progresses.

Cuda

[tidalsculpin]

Well, I did an initial water test today. Some mixed results. I need to epoxy two small leaks on the return. I have a slightly leaky bulkhead. My used pcx-100 is verry loud. Not conducive to teaching. I had my first experience with back siphoning too. Needless to say I am not that discouraged.
It is kind a tough to set this thing up with a new baby in my home and trying to teach at the same time. Tomorrow, I'll fixh the return and try to get the bulkhead to a non-leaky state. I mught have to rethink the pump.

Later,

Joel L.

[Ronjunior]

Hold the pump up in the air to see if it's quieter....if so, use some rubber grommets underneath where it's being mounted or something to absorb the vibrations. You could alway build a soundproofing box around it as well.

[tidalsculpin]

Thanks on that one. I have read that mouse pads help on that too. I have a bare floor on purpose to try to dissapate heat into the concrete slab. I guess I can slip a pad or other piece of rubber underneath.
I fixed my skimmer connection today that was leaking. It's solid now. Gonna try to redo the return plumbing Sunday or Monday.

I have two consistent drips between joints in the return line. Should I cut off at my tee and start from scratch or do some other fix? I have pvc glue, wet dry pvc glue, abs glue and epoxy putty. Could I just putty the joints? All joints were glued.... I know I was too confident. Should of wrapped em.

[SeanF]

This is going to sound horrible but just add salt to the tank. Salt Creep is a wonderful sealant. Hey I never claimed to be a good plumber I just do it all the time.

[Ronjunior]

I would trust an epoxy over relying on salt any day. I would be scared to come back from a few weeks away in the summer and have that salt plug dissolve. (which makes me think, hope you live close to the school for feeding in the summer and what are your plans) I used some JB weld to fix a crack on the bottom of my Ocean Clear Canister months ago, so far so good.
If you redo the plumbing, be sure to use primer and don't move the pipes for awhile while the glue sets in. If you're bending the pipes, that can be an issue with getting a tight fit. Might glue one end at a time and let cure if possible. There are some techniques out there by wrapping the pipes with a special blanket type heater to bend PVC.

Garage floor padding or those giant foam kids puzzles might be good too, nice and thick to absorb the noise of pump, chiller, etc.

[acrylics]

I'd cut out the bad section and rebuild it. PVC pipe is cheap, fittings are cheap, and in the long run - a much better remedy than any "band-aid" type of fix.

HTH,
James

[tidalsculpin]

Yeah, I am going to redo the return. I wasnt happy with the way I had it set up anyways. I'm going to redo it tonight.

1 inch pvc from the return pump- 90 elbow to 1 inch tee- 1 inch pvc- two separate ball valves below water line and near the open part of the stand- 1 -/3/4 ell reducers -new 3/4 inch bulkheads- to four 1/2 inch locline return outlets. The locline will be placed near the overflows and about halfway deep into the tank. When I kicked on the pcx -100 there was a lot of flow. It is rated 1590gph. My tank height plus stand is 4' 3 inches. You just heard the amount of elbows and such. I figure I will have close to 1200 gph or a little less. I used the rc headloss calculator to try and figure this out.

For the soundbox on the pump should I use pinkboard and plywood? Do I need to put vents on the top of the box?

[tidalsculpin]

So, I re-did the return today. I only need two more locline outlets via mail and plumbing will be done. Next is to test after one day of curing. I'll fill it tomorrow and take pics.

I will start making r.o. tomorrow morning assuming the test is successful.

[Mr S]

Sweet set up. I would also like to visit your tank some time. You are more then welcome to come to the rock building seminar I am hosting in February at my school. My 8th graders just got through doing ocean animal powerpoints. I gave them extra credit if they did a critter from the reef tank. It is a great way to get students to appreciate the reef and get them to learn biology terminology. I can send you the outline if you are interested. They then presented to the class.

[tidalsculpin]

Sounds like a great idea. My kids are doing ocean critters in March. First comes water cycle and wq.

BTW -did a final water test today. No leaks.(clap)

Here's the pics. Now it is time to make R.O., Skin the cabinet, Rock scape, and cycle!!!

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/tidalsculpin/th_IMG_2332.jpg (http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/tidalsculpin/IMG_2332.jpg)
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[Nyles]

WOW... lol, is the mold growing on the walls yet? he he he he

[JManrow]

Here is a nice article written for Aquarium Fish Magazine by David Wrobel of Monterey Bay Aquarium
The Temperate Reef Tank - Part One
http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariumfish/detail.aspx?aid=9569&cid=3793&search=
The Temperate Reef Tank - Part Two
http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariumfish/detail.aspx?aid=9570&cid=3793&search=

A good short post by Bob Fenner.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cold.htm

[tidalsculpin]

Thanks,

I have read all three. The other good resource is of course the coldwater rc thread. Our own Steve Weast is kind of the star of the show on it. But, also it is very informative when discussing organisms, temperatures and more.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=890751

[JManrow]

Thanks for that link. Steve Weast's temperate tanks are a very impressive mixture of both local and Tasmanian marine life.

[tidalsculpin]

I just found this book after reading a few olds posts on the fins.actwin site. It is by the same author who wrote those magazine articles above. He keeps jellies too.

[tidalsculpin]

http://www.biblio.com/books/87448246.html- Forgot the link(booboo)

[JManrow]

That link is just the biblio.com search engine. Was it The Temperate Reef Aquarium by David Wrobel? I have that book around here somewhere. I'll let you know when I find it.

[tidalsculpin]

Yes, I meant The Temperate Reef. Definitely not on loan at the Eugene Public Library either. Biblio had it for sale.

BTW: I have done initial rockscaping and added about 70% of the water. I'll probably have the tank truly running by next Wednesday. I ordered a new pump panworld 100px-x from ebay. Should be here on Tuesday. I have a buyer for the loud pcx100 too. I'll add additional flow with seios on the front of the tank. I'll determine the size of the seios after I have the panworld running.

I'll post pics of all this on Wednesday or Thursday this week.

Joel

[tidalsculpin]

Well, my skimmer bulkhead still leaks. The custodian called to have me clean up the mess at 8:00 at night.(nono)

I tried a new bulkhead gasket and it seemed tight. I'll test the sump again tomorrow.

Getting a bit frustrated with the leaks. Hello Guppy Maintenance Jay will be swinging by tomorrow to help out.

Rock scaping done. 3 mysis cube in the tank to get things going. Powerhead is running things in display at this point to keep a little circulation going.

No heater is on. Will cycling be slower at 62? vs say 70?

[oldbrownies]

if you heat it up it should help to cycle faster

[tidalsculpin]

So, I need like a 300 watt heater, right?

[steveweast]

I'd cycle the tank at 55 F with NH4CL.....I'm not convinced that the same bacterial strains that function at reef temps are the same that operate at cold temps....could be wrong here.....but, I wasn't willing to take that chance. My tank cylcled in about 5 weeks at 55 F. I used a lot of NH4CL so that when I added the local live rock, there would be little die off. Besides....the local stuff will look so much more natural than dry rock.

Ryan and I went diving yesterday to take advantage of the good visability....picked up a few pieces of rock with kelp attached. My seahorses needed a few more hitching posts. Water temp was 45 F. The local rock can be quite atrractive.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/steveweast/kelprock.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/steveweast/kelprock2.jpg

[Michael7979]

Steve is that red and blue in the middle of the first picture a Catalina Goby?

[steveweast]

Steve is that red and blue in the middle of the first picture a Catalina Goby?



Yes...there are a few in each tank.

[Michael7979]

Each tank?

How many temperate tanks are you running.

[Nyles]

nice catch, I want a cold tank just so I can have one or two and breed... :D too bad they are hard to sell.

[steveweast]

Each tank?

How many temperate tanks are you running.


I have two tanks that have a common sump. The tanks just take up some spare room in my main tank's equipment closet.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/steveweast/coldtanks.jpg

[Michael7979]

In your picture, the tank on the right is the one that I did not know about.

Both look great!! Very nice job!!!

[oldbrownies]

but your main tank's equipment room is probably the size of most of our spare bedrooms :-p

[oldbrownies]

steveweast does have a good point about bacteria, maybe the cold water bacteria wont like the heat if you do that to cycle it

[Michael7979]

but your main tank's equipment room is probably the size of most of our spare bedrooms :-p

It's only about 7 x 9 feet. (whistle) :p (laugh)

[oldbrownies]

okay the size of my bathroom

[mister crabs]

what kind of light do you have over that tank on the right steve? Is that a tek? if so haw many bulbs is it?

[steveweast]

There are 6 T5's on the small tank and 4 T5's on the bigger tank. I run all 6 on the smaller tank for the kelp plants....but, I only run 2 of the 4 bulbs on the bigger tank.

[JManrow]

steveweast does have a good point about bacteria, maybe the cold water bacteria wont like the heat if you do that to cycle it

I have read some on the subject. Many species of bacteria will adapt from warmer to cooler temperatures.

Here is quote from Fish and Invertebrate Culture - Water Management in Closed Systems(Second Edition) by Stephen Spotte.

"Temperature
Many species of bacteria can survive large changes in temperature, although their activities may be affected temporarily. A period of adjustment, called a time lag is often evident if the temperature has been altered abruptly. Time lags are seen when the temperature is lowered suddenly; increases in temperature ordinarily speed up biochemical activities and therefore may not produce a time lag. Srna and Baggaley (1975) studied the kinetics of nitrification in seawater aquariums. A rise of 4° C increased ammonia and nitrite oxidation by 50% and 12% respectively, compared with calculated values. Lowering the temperature 1°C slowed down the oxidation rate by 30% and a 1.5°C decrease reduced the rate of nitrite oxidation by 8%, compared to calculated values."

I would cycle the tank at room temperature, then slowly lower the temperature over a week's time. As organisms are added to your aquarium, other species of bacteria will be gradually introduced.
I also agree with Steve Weast about having all local rock, with attached flora and fauna in the display tank. The dry calcareous dead baserock or feather rock that I suggested would be best kept in the sump to supplement denitrification.

[JManrow]

There are 6 T5's on the small tank and 4 T5's on the bigger tank. I run all 6 on the smaller tank for the kelp plants....but, I only run 2 of the 4 bulbs on the bigger tank.

Steve - What combination of T5's are you using? The macroalgae, along with everything else in your tanks, look great!

[tidalsculpin]

So steve- when you say alot of ammonium chloride what dose do you prefer per gallon?

Like 50 grams? 100 grams? Do you dose all at once? Over the five weeks? Over the first week to get a large spike?

My total volume is around 170 gallons.

[steveweast]

So steve- when you say alot of ammonium chloride what dose do you prefer per gallon?

Like 50 grams? 100 grams? Do you dose all at once? Over the five weeks? Over the first week to get a large spike?

My total volume is around 170 gallons.

Hmmmm.....Well, that was over two years ago....but, I was adding the ammonia chloride every few days throughout the cycle period to build up the bacteria populations. If I remember right, I started out with a teaspoon full with each dosage....then finished with a tablespoon. Near the end, I'd see no NH4 or NO2 indications on my test kits with each addition. I just felt it was better to prepare the tank this way to mimimize the die off and ammonia spike when I added live rock.

[steveweast]

Steve - What combination of T5's are you using? The macroalgae, along with everything else in your tanks, look great!



Mostly 6500K daylight T5's with an actinic thrown in.

[tidalsculpin]

In addition to ammonia seeding, how about this?

What do you think of getting some "crab water"? We could get some from the live crab tank at Fisherman's Market here in Eugene. The water is kept cold there and would definitely harbor coldwater bacteria since the crabs must carry it with them from the ocean. I know that getting someone's water c an help a cycle run it's course. Do you think that would be beneficial to get well adapted strains?

[steveweast]

In addition to ammonia seeding, how about this?

What do you think of getting some "crab water"? We could get some from the live crab tank at Fisherman's Market here in Eugene. The water is kept cold there and would definitely harbor coldwater bacteria since the crabs must carry it with them from the ocean. I know that getting someone's water c an help a cycle run it's course. Do you think that would be beneficial to get well adapted strains?


It might help seed faster....it seems a bit of a hassle though....but, if you're game....

[reef165]

so, hows the tidepool coming allong? got any rock or livestock in it yet? have you gon scouting for livestock?

[reef165]

hey steve, how deep are you diving to get to your livestock? im going for my scuba cert this summer but would like to collect sooner and get things started with the rock and ?

[tidalsculpin]

I have a grey calclaroues substrate in there now plus some sandstone and basalt. No live rock yet. I'll look into that later once my tank is well established maybe even next schoolyear. They say nothing good happens in SW tanks fast. That is especially true for coldwater I believe. Cold water means slower metabolic rates for all organisms big and small.
I am still having issues with leaks but it's better than before. The evap rate is very high as I suspected and am trying to devise an inexpensive see- through cover. I want plexi-glass but can't come up with something that won't bow for less than 210 bucks. Still looking. 1/2 inch 48 X 24 sheets are 85 plus shipping or more. Bring Recycling in Eugene has some plexi i believe. Don't know if it can be cleaned up though. I have thought of glass frames, but don't like that for many reasons from sweating to safety issues. If I am sliding the thing off all the time for lessons I don't want it to chip or break.

I have a site picked out for livestock. Cape Arago by Coos Bay. The liverock may come from steve w if his offer still stands. I believe he does much of his diving in the Puget Sound area.

My cycling is underway despite my leaks. Ammonia levels have risen with frozen shrimp and krill added.

[steveweast]

hey steve, how deep are you diving to get to your livestock? im going for my scuba cert this summer but would like to collect sooner and get things started with the rock and ?



I collect anywhere from a couple of feet.....to 120 feet......but, most stuff is around 50 ft.....rocks at around 30 ft. I went last week and brought back a few stars and a few more rocks with kelp plants growing on them to give my seahorses a few more hitching posts.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/steveweast/kelprock2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/steveweast/kelprock.jpg

[reefgeek84]

Steve you need to do a big thread on your cold water tanks...I would love to see them and what it all takes for you to run them. I think I would like to have one some day...and would love to see what you have done in order to do it.

[reef165]

steve, im trying to plan my tank now and was wondering, since there arnt realy any corals, or the lighting demand for the ones to be had, in your opinion do you think a taller tank vrs a deep tank would look better doing a cold reef? im thinking a 60x36x36 and think the highth would come in handy for the kelp growth and give swimming room for a couple perch or?

[steveweast]

steve, im trying to plan my tank now and was wondering, since there arnt realy any corals, or the lighting demand for the ones to be had, in your opinion do you think a taller tank vrs a deep tank would look better doing a cold reef? im thinking a 60x36x36 and think the highth would come in handy for the kelp growth and give swimming room for a couple perch or?


The height really doesn't matter....it'a a personal choice. I'd really think twice about having kelp plants though. They do require significant light.....which ...coupled with the higher nutrient level....leads to algae and maintenance. I have my kelp plants for my seahorses in my small tank.....and as a result....that small tank has many times the nuissance algae growth as my bigger...less lit...tank.

[reef165]

point well taken! ill avoid the kelp,and maybe go with a 30 tall x 66 long x 36deep

[acrylics]

The evap rate is very high as I suspected and am trying to devise an inexpensive see- through cover. I want plexi-glass but can't come up with something that won't bow for less than 210 bucks. Still looking. 1/2 inch 48 X 24 sheets are 85 plus shipping or more.
Try to find polycarbonate, maybe 3/8" or 1/2". It doesn't warp out as much as acrylic. FWIW, if you get acrylic, it won't matter much how thick it is - it'll still warp, hence the recommendation for polycarb :)

James

[tidalsculpin]

Thanks James on the polycarb idea.
I have most leaks down to a minimum. 3 -4 drops a min. I'll try to get them 100 percent dry on Friday when Jay of Hello Guppy has more time to help me out. My overflow is noisy and I am starting to think about building two durso overflow setups. The panworld pum is great though. I think it pumps out of my outlets more evenly too.

Cycle report
My ammonia levels are still low. I am going to start the ammonium chloride treatment next week. I added 10 g of old reef water today as part of my water change routine. That may help bacteria wise.
2/13/07
5.0 ammonia
Nitrites 0
Nitrates trace
sg 1.023
Temp 61 F

[oldbrownies]

remember, a lid to hold in the evap is also going to hold in alot of heat

[oldbrownies]

or hold it out, depending on your chiller situation

[tidalsculpin]

One thing to remember is that I am not going to pump a lot of radiant heat into this system. I will may run two 96 watt pcs 36 inches above the tank. Right now it's just the school's t5 lights 8 feet above and the tank looks pretty good. My chiller is 1/2 hp or 6000 btus. There are other factors though.
Yes, entropy promotes cooling. Evaporation is an endothermic process. But, there are many other factors as Wikipedia states:
"Factors influencing rate of evaporation

* Concentration of the substance evaporating in the air. If the air already has a high concentration of the substance evaporating, then the given substance will evaporate more slowly.
* Concentration of other substances in the air. If the air is already saturated with other substances, it can have a lower capacity for the substance evaporating.
* Flow rate of air. This is in part related to the concentration points above. If fresh air is moving over the substance all the time, then the concentration of the substance in the air is less likely to go up with time, thus encouraging faster evaporation.
* Concentration of other substances in the liquid. If the liquid contains other substances (such as salts), it will have a lower capacity for evaporation. This is due to Raoult's law.
* Temperature of the substance. If the substance is hotter, then evaporation will be faster.
* Inter-molecular forces. The stronger the forces keeping the molecules together in the liquid state the more energy that must be input in order to evaporate them.
* Surface Area: A substance which has a larger surface area will evaporate faster due to the fact that there are more surface molecules which are able to escape."

[steveweast]

Evaporation is a good thing....it allows you to top off with kalk....which will solve a chronic problem with cold tanks....a low pH. Since there is no photosynthesis going on in the tank, you'll struggle to keep the pH above 7.9. I top off with kalk and can keep the ph above 8.1....but, without kalk, the pH will fall to 7.9 or lower. An auto top off with kalk is easy to set up. Improved gaseous exchange to blow off CO2 is another benefit of increased evaporation. Covering tanks is a bad thing.

[tidalsculpin]

Covering tanks is a good thing when cleaning chemicals are used and I don't have control over it. Covering tanks is also a good thing when I have a substitute. Sometimes strange things happen in middle schools. I need some barrier to keep out spit wads when I have the old lady sub who can't see working for me!!!(nono)

I do plan on using kalk. I don't plan on covering my tank most of the time, but there are times when it is necessary in my classroom.

[steveweast]

Forgot about the special hazards of Jr. High school.....you'll want to try to find a way to get at least a gallon of kalk a day into a system of your size to maintain pH.

[tidalsculpin]

I am working on an optimum sump level these next few days. My drips are almost gone. Only one drop a minute on the skimmer. I am going to do some calculations on normal evap rates in my room over the weekend. Once I get a cover I'll try to figure out the ptimal time to have it uncoverd and get on a schedule.

[AquasereneDiver]

Wow, Joel...just wow.

When you first discussed this with me way back when I was blown away at what a great project this was going to be...now I'm completely and totally impressed!

I can't wait to help stock it....get that chiller going! ;) We'll be there Thursday with the first batch of critters! As I said at the shop today, it'll be a grab bag depending on what we can find...but I can at least guarantee hermits and snails...and some mud. :) I've never made a dive there without seeing at least a couple of small sculpin too...so keep your fingers crossed and we'll see what we can come up with for you.

Oh..and a quick note on our second trip for you. Karin (the girlfriend/dive buddy) mentioned to me that we ought to be able to get those seastars you're after with a dive in Newport...we're planning it for the end of February/beginning of March.

We'll be in touch!

Cheers,
Austin

[tidalsculpin]

Thanks so much Austin. And welcome to PNWMAS!!!(rock2)

[AquasereneDiver]

Thanks, Joel. :) So many more letters than my old URS. (Upstate Reef Society) lol

Cheers,
Austin

[reef165]

So Austin what is the collection law for Oregon ? from what i can find, you dont need any kind of licence, but you are limited to the # of critters a day, does that sound right?

[JManrow]

http://www.dfw.state.or.us/resources/fishing/regulations_2007.pdf

[tidalsculpin]

Here is a small update of the tank.

SW is in and there are no leaks. (clap) For now.

Chiller has been running since yesterday with cycling a bit on the fast side. 15 min off, 3 min on.

Tomorrow Jay of Hello Guppy Maintenance will be helping me tune the PM Bullet2 Skimmer.

1/2 inch plexi arrives tomorrow to for coverage.

Friday Austin is dropping off some muck, stray sandstone pieces and some native hermits. He is not collecting from a marine garden or sanctuary.

Kids are tracking the Water Quality of the tank and have a basic understanding of the Nitrogen Cycle.
They have taken 8 data points now.

This week we are now moving into wave action and tides. Next week we will study tide zones and animal adaptions to each zone.

Students will do a research project on animals from each zone and will have to define the structures and functions related to the specific microhabitat.

Of course, there won't be many animals in here but they will see it come alive a bit next week.

most are ready for a manta ray or shark. still some are routing for Pirhanas.

Some think I have built this to have a hot tub in my classroom. Pretty chilly at 55 degrees F lol

[AquasereneDiver]

Joel et al.,

First off, yes, I will NOT be collecting from a marine garden or sanctuary zone. My collection sites (for now) will be the North Jetty in Florence, OR (an underwater park, but not an off-limits zone) and the Yaquina Bay Fingers in Newport, OR.

Second, I have my gear assembled and we will be making our dives tomorrow. I also have requisite life-support gear for maintaining the critters until Friday morning. (Powerheads, Air pumps/stones...access to all the cold fresh saltwater I can take home from the store..;) but I don't foresee the need for it) I'm sure I have too much collection gear assembled, we'll see what we use and what we can forget about after this experience. I have nets, mesh "goody bags" (standard diver collection gear for when we're crabbing out on the coast), disposable plastic containers, buckets, coolers, etc, etc ad nauseum. LOL

And one last thing. Water parameters from the North Jetty in Florence:
Salinity: 32ppt (as SG will vary with temp, I used the refractometer to measure it)
pH: 7.8
Ca: 360ppm
ALK: 7 degrees dKh or 2.5 mEQ/L
(and just for fun...I tested Nitrates of the "dirty water"...0ppm...looks like nature gets it right after all, eh? )

Judging from these measurements, I would say that you probably aren't going to need to supplement Ca levels with Kalk or really have to worry about alkalinity if you keep up with a good water change regimen.

Wish us luck! Hermits and snails for sure tomorrow (although snail ID is going to be fun...there are an awful lot of carnivourous species out on our coasts...), along with a small sculpin if things go well. And we can also probably pull out a Purple Shore Crab or two. And Nuttall's (Heart) cockles too...although I do want to check their diet..if they're phytoplankton feeders or equal opportunity phyto/zoo feeders, a bit of supplementation with DT's ought to do the trick. Basically we're going to come back with what we can find (bearing in mind the age of the tank and resultant bioload stress...in short...not too many fish! :) ).

Wish us luck and see you on Friday morning!! (I'll call with a catch report tomorrow night...)

Cheers,
Austin

[oldbrownies]

Post pics asap, I'm really excited to see what you get!

[reef165]

i didnt want it to sound like i was questioning the legality of his collecting, im curious because i would like to begin collecting off the OR/WASH. coast but for one having troudle understanding wether i need a licence or not, after looking through the link JManro offered it seems i need an angler, and a shellfish licence for OR and the same in WASH if i want to collect there to,is that correct? allso, theres a list of whare i cant collect,sorta, whare can i collect in oregon?

[tidalsculpin]

I went a different route personally. I got a scientific collectors permit. I think that people can go and collect inverts with a shellfish permit in Oregon. Can't remember the limits. Washington law is unknown to me, but I have heard it is much more stringent, especially in the Puget Sound. That IS where the diversity is too.

[tidalsculpin]

Here are picks of the tank with rock placement and final chiller placement. The chiller is running on a simple closed loop. Cycling has been better the last day or so. It cycles on very 15 min and only runs for about a min.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/tidalsculpin/th_IMG_2427.jpg (http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/tidalsculpin/IMG_2427.jpg)
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/tidalsculpin/th_IMG_2426.jpg (http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/tidalsculpin/IMG_2426.jpg)
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/tidalsculpin/th_IMG_2425.jpg (http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/tidalsculpin/IMG_2425.jpg)
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/tidalsculpin/th_IMG_2424.jpg (http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/tidalsculpin/IMG_2424.jpg)
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/tidalsculpin/th_IMG_2423.jpg (http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/tidalsculpin/IMG_2423.jpg)

[AquasereneDiver]

Hi, this is Karin posting under Austin's username. (I am his live-in dive buddy/instructor/additional hand at catching neat stuff, you know...) :)

For the questions regarding collection, here is some info specifically the Oregon coast. Law states that collection of snails, shore crabs, seastars and any other non-listed species (including hermit crabs,) must be limited to 10 total per day. Collection of shellfish, including heart cockles, needs a license ($6.50 for a year pass for an Oregon resident,) and is limited to 12.
Crab must be male, 5 3/4 inches and you need to measure them before coming out of the water. I couldn't find anything specific about marine sculpin, my assumption here, (though I plan on calling about it tomorrow,) is that it falls under the "other" category, or simply isn't an issue for game and wildlife to worry about. Oregon does not have any coastline that is specifically off-limits for collection... it seems our preservation lies further off the coast.
Washington is different, and has many more places from which you simply cannot collect (being marine reserves or sanctuaries).
If you plan on taking any fish, you need to make sure that you are following the angler's license rules as well as size requirements, which are specific to the species.
Be careful also about how you transport the creatures. You can't have "mutilated" an animal before putting it in a car- which means crabs must stay whole and measurable, while with fish scales must stay on as well in order to determine type and size.
Curiously, you cannot dispose of unwanted parts at the site... (what? when a creature dies in the ocean it puts itself in a garbage can?)... but I guess I can understand this simply because of the amount of waste a fisherperson may actually produce.

Anyway- let me let Austin back on... he has pictures to share of our trip today... (which was actually quite eventful, being 3 foot visibility with a light and a bit of a current sweeping through...)
:)
Thanks for letting me be a part of this- I look forward to meeting you, Joel!
-Karin

[AquasereneDiver]

Okay...the pictures! lol

First...the total haul:

1 Buffalo Sculpin
Several hermit crabs (as yet undetermined species)
Several snails (as yet undetermined species)
3 Heart (Nuttall's) Cockles
1 Blue Mussel
1 Acorn Barnacle
1 Purple Shore Crab

Then the pictures...the first couple are of me in dive gear (thanks to Karin!). I know..boring and all..but Reef165 should know what he's getting himself into before he gets certed... (clap)

The rest are of the livestock...a couple of the lil Sculpin (which was the "consolation" prize due to my ineptitude (or the lack of a properly sized net!! lol) to catch several little gunnells hiding under a large boulder...after spending four or five minutes trying to manipulate a dive light, large net, and several uncooperative tiny fish while lying pressed into the mud bottom, I gave up and turned around to find that little guy staring back at me with his big beautiful eyes... (laugh) ). According to my dive computer, he was caught at about 39' in a currently brisk 48 degree ocean. The same with the various snails and hermits. The mussel/barnacle was harvested (pick of said mollusc in next post...hit my five pic limit for this one) in about 20' of water...same temp (brrrr). The shore crab was all Karin...right near our exit point..in about 4' of water (she beat me to one...I had one cornered and was tossing detritus everywhere trying to dig it out, but it eluded me...along with another, larger sculpin of indeterminate species...ahh..the one that got away, eh? ;) )

Everybody looks comfy for now...they're being hand-delivered to Joel at around 9:45 Friday morning.

Any questions anyone has...please let us know!

Thanks again for letting me help on this...I love it. Gives us yet another excuse to get in the water...and next week we're off to Newport for another collecting trip!! (rock2)

Cheers,
Austin

[AquasereneDiver]

Here's the pic of the mussel/barnacle...bad I know..but it's dark out!! ;)

Cheers,
Austin

Quick update: While typing this post, Karin suddenly remembered she also was able to grab a pair of limpets and several other hermits...which were quietly whiling away the time in her BCD pocket. (whistle) DOH! . LOL They're still alive...(god bless intertidal species) some 5+ hours after getting out of the water. (also god bless the fact that Karin doesn't take care of her dive gear...no freshwater rinse for them either...) So they've been added to the holding facility (read: cooler), where I'll keep an eye on them to make sure they don't expire due to their extended stay out of the water.

[oldbrownies]

LOL, oh look what I've got in my pocket... oh wait its ALIVE!!!

[tidalsculpin]

Wow, If the muscle dies I WILL have an ammonia spike. He's huge!

[impur]

Great pics and info! Welcome to the site as well!!!

[steveweast]

I'm a little confused since I dive fairly frequently.....was there anything with color ? Where's the christmas anemones, corynactus, red brooding anemones, assorted colored stars, kelp crabs, grunt sculpins, baby king crabs, nudibranchs, cup corals, coralline encrusted rocks, etc.....or was this first trip's purpose to collect a few starter clean up critters ?

[tidalsculpin]

Well, it was Florence jetty, not exactly a hotbed of diversity. The Newport dive should bring some more colorful stuff. I want to see how hermits and some snails do first. The goal was hardy animals and things moving in the tank while I was teaching the topic. Austin helped me accomplish that. With Spring coming and algae growing season coming on I am sure more will appear at the jetty and along the coast.

Coralline encrusted rocks is a goal to strive for once I feel the tank is stabilized.

[Nyles]

Oregon does not have any coastline that is specifically off-limits for collection... it seems our preservation lies further off the coast.
-Karin

Actually Oregon does, but I am only aware of Cape Arago tidepool zone known as a no collect zone, I think this is simply because of the diversity there. I went there with a Ranger as a guide and she wrote a ticket for someone taking specimens and noted it was one of the only no collect zones, after we left he started collection again so she gave him a ticket. I have posted instructions on how to get to tidepool here before, its not easy to get to and most people don't know it exists.

Very nice place to collect from if you can get a permit, I know Joels permit covered that collect zone, I offered to help, he has yet to go there that I am aware of.

[tidalsculpin]

Yeah, yeah I know. You can come too Nyles. I just haven't set a date yet. I have to tell the biologist when I am collecting. My life these days has been work, tank plumbing, the whole family having a cold, and a newborn. It's a miracle that I have animals coming tomorrow and that the tank is ready for them.

[Nyles]

How about I drop three of my kids off at your place and I will fix your tank up? :)

[tidalsculpin]

(laugh) Nice try. Point taken.

[AquasereneDiver]

Where's all the cool stuff? We don't have it in Oregon...;). The only "local" kelp forests are down in Port Orford and they require either a charter or the proper alignment of stars to reach them from shore without killing yourself. Newport has some kelp beds, so hopefully we'll be able to collect some better specimens there.

We're also going to check the Washington collection laws to see if we can collect when we're up there in the beginning of March. The Puget Sound has far more diversity than the Oregon coast. The last dives we made up there we saw several species of rockfish, more varied species of sculpin, several shrimp species, kelp crab/Puget Sound King crab, anemones (several, including Giant Plumose (Metridium sp.)), several kelp species, chimaera, etc., etc. (too many things to note..."a lot" would be appropriate..including litte red octopus). However, I also don't know if Joel wants to mix species or make it an "Oregon only" tank. If so, we can also attempt to collect from the Depoe Bay tidepools (purple urchins there a lot, plus more sea stars).

There is a lot still up in the air...but for now, we do have some specimens for the tank. (And Buffalo Sculpin can certainly be colorful...I've seen adults in the Jetty that have red/pink speckles on their giant heads...)

Cheers,
Austin

[steveweast]

There should be no difference between Wa and Or....I guess the Oregon spots are more of a boat dive thing though. I've always wondered if there was a closer spot than Puget Sound to go collecting.....that's why I was watching and waiting for your posts. I go to Wa to collect. Some really nice collection spots from a shore dive are Seiku, Deception Pass, Burrows, and Skyline.....and sometimes at Jorstead.

[tidalsculpin]

I'm definitely open to making it a Pacific Northwest tank. Anemones are definitely an interest for the tank. I am starting to wonder about how much more substrate I need to add to the tank. 60 lbs of tidal grey seachem is clearly not enough. Some anemones or cockles will need a deeper substrate.

[reef165]

Steve, are all the purple things on the rocks anemones? If yes, did you get them in Wash? How do you transport from Puget Sound? a cooler with a powerhead?
Does anyone know the collection laws for B.C.? from what i can gather theyve got allot of nice things and aparently your best bet for the baby Puget Sound King Crab
Austin, The suit looks good,cant weight to get into one and join in the fun. How far out are the Kelp beds and how deep? I may have access to a boat, (23 foot thunderjet, my cousin goes to bouy 10 fishing all the time)

[steveweast]

Steve, are all the purple things on the rocks anemones? If yes, did you get them in Wash? How do you transport from Puget Sound? a cooler with a powerhead?
Does anyone know the collection laws for B.C.? from what i can gather theyve got allot of nice things and aparently your best bet for the baby Puget Sound King Crab
Austin, The suit looks good,cant weight to get into one and join in the fun. How far out are the Kelp beds and how deep? I may have access to a boat, (23 foot thunderjet, my cousin goes to bouy 10 fishing all the time)

Yes....they are anemones. I use lift bags and two very large coolers....no powerheads. I would imagine you'd have tough time at the border crossing with coolers filled with livestock.

[AquasereneDiver]

Steve,

You'd be surprised at the differences in the undersea topography between WA and OR. The OR coast is one very large sandflat running to a reef line about 3/4 of a mile offshore pretty much everywhere. (The notable exception is far southern OR, in places like Port Orford...and if you can hook up a boat dive to about 1/4 mile offshore at Orford, reef165...count Karin and I IN!! ;) ) There are also no really great upwellings like you find in WA (in the San Juans especially...great deepwater currents dragging up lots of nutrients). This gives us average visibility in the exceptionally poor range (at the Jetty yesterday, the vis was in the neighbourhood of 2'...the best I've ever seen visibility there was 10').

However...all that being said...we are headed for West Seattle in two weeks and Karin and I are more than willing to collect. Are the collection laws in WA similar to those in OR, Steve? (I did note there are a lot more protected zones from the WA DFW website, but none where we'd be diving...with the exception of Edmonds UP.) And Steve...what coolers are you using that sink? lol I was thinking about dropping the coolers and using lift bags to bring them back up...but none of our coolers are negative enough to drop...

As far as the substrate issue goes...the cockles only need a few inches..they bury themselves fairly shallow..only have short syphons. Now if you were going to try any of the larger gapers or geoducks..lol...that's a different story. Oh..and one other addendum for you, Joel. I'm going to have to head in for 8:30 tomorrow, not 9:45...they need me in at 10 at the store instead of 12...blah. (and here I was thinking I was going to get more sleep...;) )

Cheers,
Austin

[steveweast]

The collection laws are somewhat similar to Oregon. You'll need a fishing license, a shellfish license, and a seaweed license. You can get them online for about $ 60 for all three. Their licenses run from March to March. You just have make sure that you're not in a preserve.

The coolers are for transport home. We use large mesh bags that we fill and send to the surface.

As for vis...it varies greatly from 0 to 75 ft.....I check the scuba boards where folks report vis at various spots before going. For livestock....It varies throughout the sound. Some spots are great for anemones...other spots for stars...other spots for fish.

[tidalsculpin]

This appears to be a fairly complete diving ID page for Washington State:

http://www.seaotter.com/index.html

The photos are stunning.

[JManrow]

You are doing a great job stocking your tank. Adding hardy invertebrates is definitely the best way to go right now, since your tank's biological system is not yet established. There has already been too much careless spending of our resources the way many of us spend money. You are teaching your students much more than how to make a colorful tank. That will happen in time as your tank becomes established and is able to support more delicate fish and invertebrates.
I have collected many of the same specimens down in the Monterey Bay Area that are found in the Puget Sound Region. As it was previously said, it has much to to with upwelling of currents bringing nutrients to particular areas. These areas normally have an extensive growth of kelp. In these Kelp Forests you will find a great diversity on marinelife. I would suggest talking to some of the divemasters at various Oregon Dive Shops about where the best areas for collecting might be. Ask them where Corynactis and Metridium anemones can be seen locally. The solitary corals are often sought after as a photographic subject - ask about these too. Different habitats will have different organisms. Zostera beds will have pipefish and many juvenile fish suitable for your tank. Don't give up on Oregon!

[AquasereneDiver]

JManrow...great point...this is about showing young people the diversity of their native species and giving them an appreciation for them. :)

As far as asking the DM's at the local shops...well...I'm well on my way to becoming one of them. lol My girlfriend is an instructor at the only shop within 60 miles. We just don't have great dive collection sites around here without paying for a charter to get offshore to the reef zones. (Let me rephrase that...we do have some great sites..Florence and Newport are two of them...they just don't pack the biological diversity punch that Puget Sound or Monterey do...) As I said, we are going to be collecting in the Sound here shortly...it wouldn't surprise me if we can come back with 20 or 30 different species without even trying. I know exactly where I can grab Metridium giganteum and roughly a dozen other species within 10 minutes in the Sound. (We usually dive Alki Beach Cove 2/Seacrest Park in West Seattle...great dive site if you haven't tried it Steve, btw. It has pretty much any depth you'd like to reach at one site...from shallow kelp beds at 40' to a huge Metridium garden on submerged girders at about 100'...and if it's your thing and you're a tech diver..the site continues to drop off to 200 or 300' or so. ;) )

Cheers,
Austin

[tidalsculpin]

Austin brought by the animals this AM. All are doing great so far. I'll be chacking parameters this afternoon. Anyone have salinity converstion charts around for a regular dip sg meter?

[JManrow]

Austin brought by the animals this AM. All are doing great so far. I'll be chacking parameters this afternoon. Anyone have salinity converstion charts around for a regular dip sg meter?

http://www.lumcon.edu/education/studentdatabase/SGTable.pdf

[tidalsculpin]

Latest parameters:

53 F /11.6 C
1.026 sg Should be about 32.8 ppt at 11.6 C
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 0.0
Ph 7.8

[reef165]

i remember a while back on this thread Austin had said he tested the PH in the ocean at 7.8 and ive herd Steve say hes strugling to keep his tank at 8.2. Does the ocean here allways test at 7.8 here? is it diff up in the sound? or is Steve still thinking tropical?

[tidalsculpin]

7.8 or 7.9 is what I am shooting for. Don't know if it gets higher than that in Oregon.
I believe that Steve's tank is not completely an Oregon tank he has quite a few organisms from the New Zealand Tasmania region. I do not know what paramaters are like in that portion of the world's ocean are. I don't think I'll let it go lower than 7.8. I'll start kalk if I have a problem.

[AquasereneDiver]

Joel...thanks again for letting me be a part of things. I can't wait to see what I can bring back from Newport next week.

I've got some pics of stuff in the tank...I'll upload them to the PC tonight and post later.

Oh...and when is everyone getting SCUBA certified? ;)

Cheers,
Austin

[JManrow]

Certified NASDS(Now Scuba Schools International-SSI) in 1971.
Who else in the club dives? (no doubt a new thread on this should be started...)

[steveweast]

A few thoughts:


1) When I test the water that I get from the Sound, the pH usually messures at 8.0....sometimes at tad lower or higher.....but, remember, the water sits with no aeration in my bucket for the over 5 hour drive home. I try to keep mine at 8.0 ish. I was unable to keep it at 8.0 without using kalk as top-off...not alot...maybe 1/2 gal a day. Since there is little photosynthethesis going on. my pH has a low of 8.0 and a high of 8.1.

2) As for s.g......I really don't think it is that important as long as it is in the 33 -35 ppt range. The areas that we dive are usually shore dives and subject to fresh water run-off or sometimes even streams. When I test the Sound water....temp at 55....for salinity on my refractometer, I usually get a 34ppt reading....so....I just use that number on my refractometer. By using this method, there's no need to correct my refractometer for temp since...if it reads 34....it is the same salinity as the Sound. I would suggest that you just use your salinity reading device on cold ocean water and use that as your temp correction.

[tidalsculpin]

Thanks for the insight Steve.

One kind of beginner question: Refractometers- What brand do you like/trust? Do they all auto adjust to temp?

Kids got a kick out of the observation time today. We notice several behaviors.
1. The buffalo sculpin matched the substrate perfectly. Didn't budge three inches from where Austin placed him.
2. One cockle was not alive. The other two, once open and feeding, excreted an interesting white globby mucous.
3. The limpets hitchhiker barnacles are readily filter feeding.
4. One other fun hitchhiker -An amphipod! It was cruising around like Luke Skywalker in the Ewok Forest looking for food.


Thanks Austin for generosity in time and effort. And the scuba talk might be fun sometime.

[steveweast]

I don't necessarily prefer one brand over another. They do not correct for temp...they are used for warm water....but, there is no need for them to correct for temp. You just need to see what your refractometer reads for cold ocean water....then match that value for your tank....the actual number is irrelevant.....just match the reading for ocean water to your tank water. Of course you could always bring up the test water temp to 78 if you like and then test and adjust to 35ppt....the salt content doesn't change with temp....just what value the refractometer yields will vary with temp...and even with that, there isn't that much of a difference. You could also use a LaMotte titration salinity test kit which is NOT dependant upon temperature and yields a ppt reading.

[AquasereneDiver]

Joel..no worries on the time and effort...we would be diving anyway and Karin likes to have things "to do" while she dives (I think it's a dive instructor thing...lol..always has to be doing something while diving). Although I have to admit, trying to aim a dive light, maneuver too big of a net, AND chase gunnells into said net while laying on a mud bottom brings new meaning to "task loading" underwater..lol.

And I would have no problem coming in in gear to talk about diving. We're actually getting a new housing for the camera shortly, so I'd even be able to share photos of what it looks like while we're down there.

Cheers,
Austin

[reef165]

any new pics?
Austin, did you make it to newport? do you know how deep the reefs are at the 3/4 mile off shore?

[tidalsculpin]

Sorry no new pics but parameters are starting to move.
The true cycle has begun.
Salinity 35 ppt
Ammonia 0.50
Nitrite 0.25
Nitrate 0
pH 7.9
Temp 11 degrees C
Animals are all alive still.
Currently feed krill 1X daily a 3 g chunk
Currently feed 1 tsp of phytofeast Reef nutrition to barnacles and clams. Get a strong feeding behavior 10 min after feeding.

Installed 1 1500 seio in the corner to bounce off the front of the tank.

Austin dives tomorrow PM. We should have new animals and pics Friday.

Tidepool Trip will be March 24th - The next mninus tide I'm off work and that the (wife) gave me off lol.

[JManrow]

Joel, did any substrate make it back to add to your sandbed?

[tidalsculpin]

No, Austin forgot the muck. Maybe this week. The Nuttal's Cockle Clams have been doing nicely. One stuck it's foot out in class today! I placed them in the thickest portion of the substrate near the front of the tank for kids to observe. They react to light and vibration much like tridacnid clams do.

[tidalsculpin]

Temp 11 C
SG 1.026
pH 7.9
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite .25 !
Nitrate 0.10 !

I've got cycle!

Snails appear to be carnivorous. They have eaten all the little barnacles off my limpet!

No new animals today(scratch) . Austin has been out of touch.

[reef165]

hows it comming? any new critters or pics? i cant tell buy the pic, what is the thickness of the tank? 3/4 or 1 inch?

[acrylics]

Tank is made from 1" with 1/2" bottom and overflow IIRC.

James

[tidalsculpin]

There a no new animals in the tank. Last week the weather was bad for Austin. His trip to Seattle did not include too much diving. I'm hoping Austin will dive this next week. I am going on my tide pool collection trip on March 24th. Anyone is welcome to tag along to Arago. That will be when I have more animals to show off. The tank is cycling cold so I am not in a hurry.

Feedings include sinking pellets, mysis,krill and live phytofeast.

Ammonia has dropped nitrates are stable. I started skimming last week. Tidepool reports are over for now. Students are moving into weather and climate next. Another opportunity to talk about corals and ecosystems effected by climate change.

I'll post some more pictures of animals when I have a chance. I have been pretty busy with sub plans lately. My wife and I are baby swapping these days until we put him in daycare.

[Nyles]

Tank is made from 1" with 1/2" bottom and overflow IIRC.

James

And did he mention its heavy. :D

[tidalsculpin]

Oh yeah,
Nyles and his bro helped bring it in the school on a freezing December night!

I placed it on the stand myself. Ouch. Yeah I know..... crazy teacher!(nutty)

Levers are simple machines. So are tanks in a pinch!

[reef165]

i was wondering if you could use a thinner acrylic for the bottom and top, that would cut down the price quite a bit.

[reef165]

i can imagine that its abought 250lbs? concidering that 1/4 inch is abought 50lbs a sheet
how do you do the quote in reply?

[reef165]

what does IIRC mean?

[tidalsculpin]

It has a double overflow setup. Don't know what IIRC means but the two bulkheads are 1.5 inches. The overflow strainer is black acrylic and is approximately 1.25 inches below the top of the tank. My pump is way underpowered for this tank. (pan-world 100px-x) I think I could run a barracuda or something and the overflows could keep up.

[acrylics]

i was wondering if you could use a thinner acrylic for the bottom and top, that would cut down the price quite a bit. One may be able to use thinner material for the bottom, but not me - I don't use anything thinner than 1/2" for aquaria :D
Tank weighs about 150lbs so not that bad, there is no top on the tank at all. Using 1" for the vertical panels helps alleviate any condensation (cold water tank) and negates the need for any top.
I think it would have been *very* difficult to cut down on the price :)
To quote things in the reply, just hit the "Quote" button at the bottom of the post you are quoting
IIRC=If I Recall/Remember Correctly

HTH,
James

[reef165]

sorry for the confusion, what i ment was thinner than the 1 inch used on the sides not the 1/2 inch that was used on the bottom, and that was whare the cheaper came in, not using the 1 inch on the bottom since its usually insulated with riggid foam and plywood.

I must say sorry to steve to, we havent herd from you since i asked abought the PH,i didnt mean anything by the PH thing, it was just curious and trying to help (if thats possable) ive been following your threads on RC and The Reef Tank. Youve inspired me to sell off my tropical reef and build a coldwater settup.

[acrylics]

Using thinner material for the sides would create for more deflection, which would require a top, so the actual cost would have been similar as their is more work involved.
The primary reasons it was done this way:
The need was there for a coldwater tank (requiring thicker material anyway to reduce condensation)
1" is a great insulator and would cut down on perpetual costs such as chiller run time.
I had the "scrap" 1" material to make the tank and thought it was a good use for the material.

Make sense? :)
James

[tidalsculpin]

As steve said in the rc thread, less than 1 inch acrylic sweats. I have seen that some folks are using double paned glass setups on that thread. They are reporting good things. That seems to be an economic way to go if you are handy with glass and making window frames.

[reef165]

i realize the sides need to be the 1 inch do to sweating, i was only refering to the thinner bottom than the sides because its insulated with the rigged foam and plywood so it wouldnt sweat with the 1/2 inch acrylic and if you went with a taller tank than 12 inches you would also need a top whitch could also be thinner than the sides because it dosnt even touch the water so sweating wouldnt be as big of a factor.
again sorry if i made it confising

[tidalsculpin]

The 1/2 inch bottom is working great. I have 1 inch pinkboard and 3/4 inch planking below the tank. It is cold (53F) and absolutely no sweating occurs in the tank. I partly insulated the sump, but I am not getting sweating there either. Only place where condensation has built up is on the vinyl chiller tubing. I am going to get some of those pipe insulators for that when I have a chance.

[reef165]

i was just going through the thread and noticed your sump being only 1/2 inch acrylic am i right and if so whats the room temp and is it sweating? did you end up using the feather rock in the sump?
also hows the whole project coming?

[tidalsculpin]

Yeah, there is no sweating. I put rigid insulation around the sump. There is sweating on the chiller pipes. Don't have insulation around those yet. Room temp is around 69-71 deg. F. No feather rock, just bioballs. The project has slowed down. I have been letting the tank establish itelf. I feed live phytoplanton every other day and sinking pellets. I lost two hermits. I lost the shore crab Thursday. Branecles are feeding. Whelks are clumping together in one spot.
Austin did not deliver on the Seattle trip. He was a bit too busy for diving.
Saturday the 24th I'm collecting at the Cape Arago Reserve. Should be lots more to see next week. Wanna help me collect?

[JManrow]

Your nitrification cycle may have begun to reach toxic levels for your hermits and shore crab. If this is the case, it may not be a good time to add any new marine life to the tank.
What are your current readings now? Since you are using bioballs only, do you plan on dealing with nitrates with water changes only? Are you looking into some means of denitrification? Here are a couple of links that may be useful:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/denitrification_erfaqs.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/nitratesmar.htm

More info on the ASD system (autotrophic sulfur denitrification)
http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariumfish/detail.aspx?aid=17592&cid=3793&search=

[tidalsculpin]

John, I have not taken a reading in five days. My nitrates were 0.10 last Monday.

The sculpin is active and doing well. Cockle hearts are actively feeding too.

The hermits were not getting enough food. I suspect they ate each other. There was some pretty serious aggresion. I started to feed dainichi sinking pellets and they have been behaving better. Also, the mussel had quite a bit of macroalgae on it. This has been fortunate for all the animals since I see them foraging there often.
I do have some feather rock in the lab. Some pieces are quite large. Do you recommend just dumping them in the sump or should I break them up. Some are as large as 11 inches accross. I know there are different kinds of denitrification i.e. aerobic, anerobic. In theory the large pieces would provide both. Correct?

Also, I was planning on doing a 30 gallon change tomorrow.

[JManrow]

As long as they fit in the sump, don't bother breaking them up. The denitrification process is done by anerobic bacteria, the nitrification by aerobic.
Yes, the exterior surface of the feather rock would eventually colonize with aerobic bacteria, and the low oxygen core with aerobic as in base rock. I have used it in freshwater aquariums with good results. It is composed of an inert volcanic glass, and will not affect pH.
Just how porous and what degree of denitrification is accomplished with local liverock is unclear to me at this time. It appears to be very dense granite and similar rock.
As I mentioned to you in a PM, we have the Oregon Coast Aquarium and Hatfield Marine Science Center as valuable local resources.
The Aquarists at both facilities have been a great help over the past years and I'm sure will help with any questions we may have if asked.

[tidalsculpin]

So here is the link to a video of my tank after acclimation process. Took about two hours to get things in the tank. Some anemones have not opened up. Have two small fish from the trip. Both are sculpins like my name!!! One is orange the other is salt an pepper.
The list: 5 chitons one is over 10 inches long
10 snails
5 amphipods
3 crabs
5 hermits
lots of algae types.
Coralline rock.
5 purple urchins
4 anemones
great memories

My trip started at 8:00 am in Eugene. I was back home from my classroom at 8:00 PM.

http://s92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/tidalsculpin/?action=view&current=tidepoollow-res.flv

[reef165]

to cool!! looks like it was fun to get all your gear in and out of.

[reef165]

any new happenings? did you ever add any feather rock and whats the results if you did? do you think it would be wise to use a couple LBS. of base rock when cycling the tank? whare do you get the amonia and whats the name on the bottle?
Im getting close to starting my tank and am gona need a play by play, should i start a thread when i start the tank?

[impur]

Of course you should start a thread when you start the tank! DOH!

I checked out Joel's tidepool tank and it is awesome! The anenomes are really cool, it takes you to the coast!

[fish.freak]

sweet tank any new pics?

~Scottie~

[biomekanic]

Tidal: have you considered lighting the sump and using it as a refugium? I'm sure the OCA/HMSC could help you with getting some seawoods to put in there.

The tour group I was with had the filtration manager for the OCA as one of the guides. I've mentioned this in another thread, but he talked about how the intakes screen out larger animals but plenty of larvae get into the system and settle into the mud settling area. They collect from their and get a lot of animals out of it. I'm sure if you asked, the next time they clean it out they'd be willing to share, plus if you wanted to do a mud/seagrass system to go along with the tidepool, you could take a bucket or two home.

Also... what kind of bribe would I need to get a look at this in person? :D

[tidalsculpin]

Come out and check it out any time. PM me!!

Steve Weast steered me clear of doing a refugium. I am still considering it. Right now I am trying to build up live rock in the sump. I have about 30 lbs now and am shooting for 40. I have been meticoulously curing lr in a rubbermaid and adding it to the sump after temp acclimation. Hoping this helps with buffering and nitrates of course.

Starfish have been brutal on my livestock. All fish made it. All anemones are happy too. My northern rose anemone is a bit shy but opens up nicely during feedings. Many bivalves have succumbed to the starfish. Thee stars now live with the liverock in the sump until I can get then back to Arago.

Thanks for your interest!

[steveweast]

Here are a few cold water thoughts that I have....


Having a refugium....

A refugium is great....warm or cold....if your goal is to create a place away from predation for small critters. If your goal is to create meaningful nutrient export through a refugium....you're deluding yourself. Cold water tanks (if significantly stocked) require enormous amounts of food. Just tonight, I fed my cold water tank's inhabitants. Between anemones, stars, fish, crabs, etc....there is about a baseball size of food that goes in.....and the two tanks are only a total of about 180gals. No refugium (unless it was enormous) could make a dent in that kind of nutrient load. If, OTOH, your tank had only a few tidepool critters.....well....then maybe.

I used to grow kelp in my small tank. It grew quite well....but....in no way could it keep up with the nutrient build up. The algae growth and associated maintenance became a nightmare.....so....I took out the kelp and turned the lights down. It's so much better now. I put all my large fish eating anemones in that small tank and all my fish into the larger tank....along with the small strawberry anemones. I now keep the light low over both tanks....and as a result, everything is right with the world again....maintenance is now negligible. I now handle nutrient build up through water changes.

As for liverock....

If you're using native rock, then you will get no dentrification value. If you're using warm water porous rock, then you might get some dentrification after a long time. These cold water tanks are NOT warm water tanks....the bacterial processes run much slower. I placed a sulfer dentritator on my cold system to help lengthen water change intervals. Even with the dentrator being rated for a 500 gal+ system, it cannot keep up with my tanks' needs......nitrate still builds over time (although it is slower now). The denitrification process is just slowed significantly in 55 F water.....it does happen....it is just slower.....as is evident in how slow the maximum drip rate can be on my denitrator. Several denitrator manufactures state in their instructions that they cannot be used with a temp lower than 65 F.....which is not the case....but, their efficiency is significantly reduced as the temp goes down.

Livestock....

As with any tank, you have to decide as to what to keep.....you can't have everything. I too, have a number of predatory stars. These stars are, perhaps, some of the most beautiful and interesting stars out there. To me....they are far more interesting than keeping their prey....namely...bi-valves. So, it's a personal choice as to what one wants to keep. I decided to keep the interesting stars instead of the less interesting scallops, oysters, snails, etc. I just occassionally go to the Japanese fish market and get a pound of live razor clams. It takes about a month for the stars to get to them all....but....it sure is interesting watching them hunt and eat.


Oregon Coast Aquarium....

Be careful when trying to replicate what they are doing over there. They are an open system with all the benefits that come with an open system. We run closed systems....which significantly reduces what we can keep and what we can accomplish.

[biomekanic]

Refugium: interesting.

If I ever go cold water, I'd be interested in a seaweed tank. :D

Would inert lava rocks (like the kind used for bbq's) make worthwhile LR for a sump?

Any thoughts on a large RSDB, more of a DSB in a tub and not a bucket.

OCA, good point.

[steveweast]

Refugium: interesting.

If I ever go cold water, I'd be interested in a seaweed tank. :D

Would inert lava rocks (like the kind used for bbq's) make worthwhile LR for a sump?

Any thoughts on a large RSDB, more of a DSB in a tub and not a bucket.

OCA, good point.



Think of running a local cold water tank as if you were running a heavily stocked warm water fish only system. Since nothing is photosynthetic, the food requirements and associated wastes are huge compared with what you're used to in a warm water reef. No amount of natural dentrification will be able to keep up....it will help....just not fully compensate like in our warm water reefs. A DSB...remote or not....will help....but, you're still going to have to rely upon dilution (water changes) for nutrient build up control. Your best equipment choice is an oversized skimmer. So, between the critters needing more food imports....and the slower bacterial processes.....cold tanks cannot be run like their warm water bretheren.

In the past, when I visited the OCA, I used to think...."man, they really have an algae problem". It wasn't until I started my own cold tank that I could relate. Even when I dive in the Puget Sound, the first twenty feet are always algae choked.....but, below that, it's algae free. I chose to replicate the lower depths by lowering my lights.....and thus making my algae problems a thing of the past. All the critters that I have come from deeper than 50 ft anyway.

[tidalsculpin]

Well, when I say that I am still considering a refugium, it is more a non connected refugium. One problem I have been trying to figure out is how to grow my own kelp for herbivore consumption. I have been thinking of trying to grow sea lettuce or some kelp. If I make a green mess it will be more like a propagation tank. Grow/ harvest, etc. Much of my harvested kelp has been eaten now. I will begin to place nori in the tank on a weekly basis. I feed Mondays and Thursdays. Monday I feed heavily and target anemones. The hermits and sculpins also benefit. Thursday I feed a bit of herbivore flake and a few sinking cyclopese pellets.

The live rock experiment is exactly that. I hope it helps with cutting down on water changes but am not counting on it. It can't hurt. I know the metabolism is slower on these bacteria but increased surface area should help a little. The rock is base rock and volcanic feather rock I picked up at the local garden supply company. Brian Fodness the chief aquarist said that skimmers are the best thing I can do for the tank(next to large water changes). He did not encourage me to go the live rock route but did not say it would hurt either.

My real nitrate control has been water changes too. Needless to say, I use a lot of salt on this project.