its sad, geneitcly modified fish...

[reefgeek84]

http://www.mongabay.com/external/glowing_fish.htm

[mister crabs]

just shows the lack of respect for animals in general throughout most of the rest of the world.

[Nyles]

G/L getting a US distributor to sell those, they will be in for a big surprise from the public response.

[R-3]

These fish sell like hot cakes in the US already. Seems most people dont care. Later Ryan

[Nyles]

I have never seen them, but does not surprise me, my point is that there is lots of people that do care and figured there would be some nasty negative press over it. What a job messing with DNA, scary if you ask me (trying your hand at gods work that is).

[mister crabs]

where do they sell em at? cuz its one place that will never get a dime out of me.

[ringwurm]

(trying your hand at gods work that is).

I think you meant to say Evolution. (clap)

[Ronjunior]

What scares the hell out of me if their research is correct is this: "American researchers are seeking approval for a super-size salmon, retooled with growth hormones"
Releasing something like that in the wild just sounds plain stupid to me. Salmon have survived how long so far and they want to go altering them?

[mister crabs]

and dont see how super-sizing a salmon could help what problems they already face, including natural predators such as sea lions who would LOVE a bigger meal, pollution, and destruction of natural spawning grounds.

[Nyles]

I see how they could sell more meat to the market.

[mister crabs]

but farm raised salmon already taste like *** compared to wild caught. they seem to be fattier and less flavorful.

[Ronjunior]

Something about genetically altered anything getting out into the wild is bad in my opnion. Even if the intention is for farming, things can and do happen whether by accident or intentional mischief by radicals. I've heard of farms on the ocean being destroyed by activists more than once. I know a guy that raises fish for food in the Philippines on his farm. He replentishes the water directly from the ocean and dumps it right back. Others are by streams. It wouldn't take much for something to get out. Look what happed to the beautiful Diamond Lake, they killed everything off because something was put in there that didn't belong. My kid made a penny per fish he caught and killed in South Twin Lake this summer. What's that fish in the Columbia you get paid to kill? Messing with mother nature just goes too far some times.
Look at the genetically altered grass they made for some golf coarses. It's made to be resistant to poisions...now for some "unknown" reason, its spread out into the wild and taking over native plants and they have no way of killing it off.
For some reason this got me thinking about Sealions. I think they're here to mock us as humans. We build something and it makes their life easier like boat docks for their siestas and dams with fish ladders for their buffet. We messed with mother nature, mother nature overcomes us, but we can't do much about it but put things back the way they were.
I ramble.... I'm bored waiting for my water to clear again so I can rearrange more rocks :)

[mister crabs]

sealions are overpopulated anyhow. maybe some of the coastal native americans can go hunt a few. i know up in washington they still hunt whales as part of thier traditions. someones gotta eat sealions right?

[reefgeek84]

I am really torn on this whole genetics thing...On one hand, I do not, think we should be changing anything about creatures and how they grow and live. However, I think that if I could have a pig grow a heart for my dieing wife, in order to save her life, I would sign up for that in a heart beat...It's very tough to deal with.

[Holly]

Wild salmon taste better, but there are far fewer of them. I'm not sure it serves them to taste better. It may be the end of them.

When Bush came into office, he had captive-bred salmon included in the counting of wild salmon, so they could be taken off the Endangered Species List and fished almost without limit. http://www.csudh.edu/dearhabermas/salmon01bk.htm Things like this, in my opinion, are a far bigger threat than a few glowing fish (that were sterlized) sitting in a lab tank.

People often get very upset at the phrase "genetic engineering," but it's done some good things. It's created vegetables resistant to insects and drought, to feed poor desert areas. It's created fish and animals resistant to disease. Not all of it's good, of course, but I don't think it's all bad either. Sometimes the benefits (by conserving natural sources or feeding people/animals in areas w/o resources) outweigh the downside, if it's done responsibly and carefully (ie, sterlization, etc). I'm not a big fan of genetic engineering; I just think issues such as this have a lot of grey area.

Many tank-raised clowns won't bond with anemones now, because over time and breeding, they've lost that drive... That's a kind of incidental genetic engineering that's not good, but breeding clowns in captivity allows us to conserve more wild clowns, so I'm not sure it's the worst thing in the world. There's a trade off for everything.

I'm not sure that Oceans, as big as they are, can supply enough fish for food and entertainment at this rate indefinitely (esp since most of the tank specimen come from only equatorial and temperate regions), so maybe it's wise to use land-based labs to help meet both requirements and take some pressure off the real thing.

Nature is best, but it can't really support all of our demands...

That said, I don't see why anyone would care about those glowing fish. I wouldn't want them, because it's not like they're 'real' fish.. but if less picky Petsmart people take those instead of real fish, then whatever. 'Doesn't really matter, so long as they're sterile (the fish, not the Petsmart shoppers LOL) (whistle)

[Ronjunior]

whatever. 'Doesn't really matter, so long as they're sterile (the fish, not the Petsmart shoppers LOL) (whistle)
They stated they were 90% sterile and they say that's good engough.....that leaves 10%. Haven't you seen Jurassic Park? :)

[CCR]

I won't buy farmed raised fish. I read a couple of years ago they where talking 120 pounders!!! Now I don't know how they would keep em all penned when they are jumpers. If they got loose and bred, we would be in a world of hurt. They would have to change the Herring and anchovies to grow larger to. The food chain would be all screwed up. The snow ball effect would be deadly.

[reefboy]

not to get off topic but they really need to do somthin about the sea lions not only are they desimating salmon runs( what really pissed me off was the one they left to catch salmon in one of the dams fish ladders killing 20-30 salmon a day because they just eat the guts out thats there faverite part and did everything but put a bullet in its head and it just kept coming back) to also ruining rock fish populations off the coast somthin gota be done.Theyve cut the fishing back but they need to cut the seal population as well or start a breeding program for greatwhites and killer whales lol.

[Holly]

The farm-raised salmon weren't good survivors. They swam at the surface expecting food and were immediately picked off by fish eagles, etc; Also they didn't breed as easily as the wild salmon. They didn't have 'survival instincts' ...

I suspect that most enetically engineered fish would prob be incapable of reproducing, not because of sterilization only, but because of lack-of-survival-skills. I mean, if you took a tank-raised clowns (with generations of domestication behind it) and tried to let one loose in the ocean with wild clowns, do you think it'd (1)survive long enough to breed or (2)if it survived long enough to be viable, be capable and comfortable enough to do so? That's seriously improbable...

'Kinda like the glowing fish. Nature is harsh, and I figure a glowing fish conditioned to domestication probably couldn't make the jump into wild survival under any circumstance... Esp since it's GLOWING AT NIGHT and easy prey for predation. No way a glowing fish would survive long in the ocean. Easy target

RonJR - You're RIGHT that there's always that margin of error! It's absolutely there. No doubt. And that's why 100% should be sterilized ... :D

I never heard about the prob with sea lions, but I haven't lived on the W Coast for a long time. No idea it was such a prob. Gonna google it some more! I'm sure they're an issue, but there's no way they're more of an issue than the extensive over-fishing. The trawlers and over-fishing have to be stopped before the people start slaughtering hundreds of sea lions. Seals are hungry natural predators and their numbers have to be kept in check, but I've seen Discovery programs about the salmon boats, and their take is disgustingly, ridiculously huge. There should be more stringent limits on it.

Sea lions rely on salmon as a natural food source; these people do it for money. One salmon boat with nets can kill far more fish in a week than the sea lions, I'd suspect... (scratch) I'm not dissing fishers; I know they have families to support and this is their livelihood. I just think that you can start slaughtering the salmon's natural enemies because the number of people relying on profits from salmon is too great to be supported by natural salmon populations.... That's crazy stuff!! :D

[mister crabs]

If people werent buying the salmon in stores and restaurants then the number of fish caught would decline. All supply and demand. And you are right about the seals and sea lions depending on salmon as a food source. they were around eating salmon long before commercial fishing. I think that the natural predators of these animals have been wiped out though and we need to do something to keep thier population in check. Need more killer whales! YAY! lol. now that would make for an interesting trip to the coast....hehehe....watch a litle natural predation at its finest. whole new meaning to "whale watching"

[Holly]

Maybe there's been a significant drop in killer whale populations?? I've no idea about that, but it'd certainly explain the overabundance of the sea lions...

[reefgeek84]

Maybe there's been a significant drop in killer whale populations?? I've no idea about that, but it'd certainly explain the overabundance of the sea lions...

I know that there has been a drop in seals on the lower pacific area (California and further south), so great whites and orca whales are going after otters now...We need to tell some fish to spread the word to the ocras, about all the fat seals up here.

[JManrow]

I know that there has been a drop in seals on the lower pacific area (California and further south), so great whites and orca whales are going after otters now...We need to tell some fish to spread the word to the ocras, about all the fat seals up here.yeah... time to relocate Orcas. Keiko would have solved the Sea Lion Problem at Bonneville Dam. :D

[dippin61]

actually.. those fish have been around for a few years now. Like since '03 is when i first heard about them

[JManrow]

Zebra Danio (Danio rerio ) Glofish have been available for a few years now.http://www.glofish.com/about.asp

Japanese Medaka seem be also used in genetic expermentation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oryzias_latipes

[SeanF]

I am more of a purist myself I don't even like hybridizing species but I still think that this is better than the good old time honored tradition of injecting fish with dye.

[illcssd]

Holly:
The effect of the sea lions on the salmon is unbelievable. I fish for salmon on the mouth of the Columbia almost every other weekend of july and august...Depending on the fish run. While doing this we gathered that every 4 fish we caught had a bite of it taken out by sea lion. every 10 or so would get lost due to a sea lion taking the fish and snapping the fishing line. One day we even had one following us, stealing all the bait and any fish we tried to catch, nothing we did could scare it away, it would come right up to the boat, our blow horn, throwing things at it, yelling, trying to run it over(which is impossible to do on purpose). Its amazing how many there are. I believe something needs to be done, whether letting the native American's hunt them, or regular people, or herding killer whales up here. Anything. I am not a scientist but thats what i have gathered over the past 4 years fishing on our coast...

And to whoever asked the question about what fish they pay you to catch and kill, its called a squaw fish (sp). They eat salmon babies and a number of other of things and are a big pest.
fwiw
austin

[jptrson]

I just read this, thought it was relevent to this thread.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070105/sc_afp/norwayenvironmentfishfarm_070105150440

[reefgeek84]

I just read this, thought it was relevent to this thread.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070105/sc_afp/norwayenvironmentfishfarm_070105150440

Very good find!!!!

"It's dramatic. We're talking about a genetic cleansing of wild salmon," , that speaks for itself.


"A total of 39 of 75 fish farms inspected by the directorate did not meet current standards"...that is scary.

[mister crabs]

scary.....too many industries affecting the oceans are either under-regulated or not regulated at all.

[WAVES]

Im with Holly, there are good examples of genetic engineering that have been a huge benefit to society. I have a very close friend that genetically engineers wheat and barley. They (OSU) are developing drought resistant strains that will be able to be grown in the desert. from the sounds of things however, its more about breeding than engineering.

[JManrow]

...and where would we be without fluorescent green pigs? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16385433/

[Holly]

I don't quite understand the desire for things that glow unnaturally.

[mister crabs]

probably goes back to a childhood fascination with fireflies!! haha

"everyone loves fireflies! Thier cute! thier butts light up!" -Dan Akroyd : Great Outdoors

[fly guy]

Wild salmon taste better, but there are far fewer of them. I'm not sure it serves them to taste better. It may be the end of them.
)

This simply isnt true if we are talking about ocean going steelhead or salmon. I didnt read all of this thread, so if we are talking about landlocked fish raised in a pen, then nothing im about to say is releveant.

BUT, if we are talking about hatchery fish caught in the ocean or the columbia, keep in mind that these fish still made the same 3-4 year journey on their own, and side by side taste comparison, i guarantee you that nobody could tell the difference in flavor.

As far as the genetics of it, that is the bad thing. The hatchery fish ARE genetically weaker, and them spawing with native fish is not a good thing. Although it happens far less than one might think. On this note keep in mind that native fish spawn within feet of where they were born. The hatchery fish on the other hand only know the smell of the water and are basically lost, simply going upstream until they find a place to spawn, many instances not even in the river system that they were intended for.
I knwo the the water we refer to as the "holy water" on the deschutes, the place wehre all the natives spawn, you will NEVER catch a hatchery fish in these holes with the natives becasue the natives run them out. Im basing this on 25 years and many thousands of steelhead and salmon caught. The hatchery fish simply do not hang out on the native reds.

The hatchery fish DO however spawn, and their offspring askews the numbers to show more wild numbers, which is not the same or as strong of genetics as the true native fish.

[mister crabs]

we were originally talking about farm raised salmon.

[JManrow]

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k300/jmanrow50/glo-pigs.jpg:D

[mister crabs]

thats just gross......i thought it was supposed to be GREEN EGGS and ham? not the other way around?!?!

[bluecheese]

thats just gross......i thought it was supposed to be GREEN EGGS and ham? not the other way around?!?!

How come on! Green pigs are cute. And soon how would you like your MATE to glow in the dark...(censored) ..wouldn't that be sexy!(huh)

(backtotopic) Seriously the benefit of GFP in research is tremendous and while some people are trying to make a few bucks on the side, we are developping new tools to image tumors , cancer growth and detection of specific cells. What if we could all be "engineered" to make GFP but it would only get activated as soon as a tumor would start growing, thus the tumor and only the tumor would glow and alert you before any symptoms would send you to the Dr. Would you do it? (daz) The other advantage is that all tumors could be seen and efficacy of treatment could actually be monitored almost day by day.

[Twitterbait]

I don't mind realistic genetics such as grains and veggies... but when we start messing with animals i think we often cross the line (I am a purist when it comes to Gods work in this regard).

as far as the salmon VS sea lions... give me a permit and i'll take my SKS and .270 down to the dam and make them dissappear real quick. if needed i can always get my friends 22-.250 with scope (we used to hit quarters at 100 yds with that thing.) Maybe we can do it as a club activity :D

[WAVES]

I'm more concerned about GM grains than animals. Remember the Starlink corn (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2465/is_8_30/ai_67448380)?

You feel producing a grain that can grow in the desert and feed millions of starving people a bad thing? I have a dear friend that works on grains at OSU, ive heard lots about it.

[Twitterbait]

i followed it... as with anything, especially in genetics, there will be problems. starlink would be one of them. they just need to be more careful.

at least foods are checked (for the most part) before they make it to the table) these stupid glowing fish seem to have no checks to see what harm they may cause.

[WAVES]

Yes, and it sounds like starbucks corn didnt properly research the result of what they have created. My whole point was making GM foods (wheat and barley) that can grow in the desert and feed people would be excellent.

as I stated, it would be for human consumption, but the research has to be done to be sure it doesnt have ill effects on the body as the starbucks corn thing did.

[andy]

DELETED by me. I'm done, just not worth it.

[bluecheese]

i followed it... as with anything, especially in genetics, there will be problems. starlink would be one of them. they just need to be more careful.

at least foods are checked (for the most part) before they make it to the table) these stupid glowing fish seem to have no checks to see what harm they may cause.

Ryan, you are heading in the right direction but I think you are missing a few points. The glow fishes were designed for a research purpose, not for entertaining. The problem is when people eager to look at profit before anything else take these concepts outside of what they were designed for and release them to the public. It is not making the glow fish that is wrong it is the intent to use them for another purpose solely based on a personal gain not intended to benefit society.

As far as not messing with "gods work" it's a little too late for that, and a lot of people would probably be dead or never born if it was not for scientist finding ways to prevent disease, design vaccines and keeping people alive that would have been eliminated by "god's " natural selection otherwise. We are all mutants some of us kept alive artificially through drugs, devices, interventions- Haven't you seen X-men yet?(laugh)

The main problem with all of this is the same one Einstein faced when he realised how nuclear energy could be put to a good or a bad use and whether it was worth the risk. It's the arrogant @@# (censored) who think they know it all and are not afraid of playing recklessly with the delicate equilibrium of nature that make the invention/idea a mistake. It's like shooting the seal hoping it will solve the problem, (how many will you have to shoot before you shift strategy?) Maybe there is a reason the seals are where they are, and that should be the first problem to solve. Address the cause not the symptoms.


(Rim)

[Twitterbait]

true dat... i could still use the target practice :D

[bluecheese]

true dat... i could still use the target practice :D

Definitely!! And I can even think of much more interesting targets for you to practice on...(enforcer)

[Mbeef61]

everyones complaining about ornamental fish and salmon....what about the freakin beef industry...this has much more affect on the masses...and sorry guys but the USA isnt any better than anywhere else, if anything it worse by having more money to do such radical things.

[tidalsculpin]

Isn't cyclopese fish/reef food a GM food?