The Importance of Buying Net Caught/Tank Raised Fish

[Mr. Reef]

Hello,

I'd like to talk to you all today about the importance of buying net caught and tank raised fish.

In this industry a very big problem still exists, and that is the use of cyanide to “catch” fish. This absurd method has been used illegally over the span of many years and while it was starting to slowly go away it has now made a huge come back. This practice mainly occurs in the Philippine Islands and Indonesia however other territories have reported use of cyanide. The criminals that are doing this are literally injecting hazardous chemicals into the coral reefs just so they can make a quick buck. The worst part of it is that the majority of the fish that are “caught” using this method die instantly, and the remainder slowly die over the course of weeks. Those few unlucky fish that are still alive after all is said and done still feel the effects of such poison, and will have a greatly diminished life span.

The fish are not the only ones affected by this, the people that inhabit these areas have to put up with it too. Fisherman and their families having to deal with cyanide poisoning is not a uncommon thing in these parts of the world, which is exceedingly unacceptable on top of all of the destruction to the marine environment that is going on. This barbaric method doesn't just affect our ecosystem, it affects us as a whole.

I have been stocking cyanide free fish for years. Net caught and tank raised fish are healthier and live a longer life. Sure, they may cost you a few extra dollars to purchase but in the end you get what you pay for, high quality fish with limited impact on reef environments. All the while you can know that you did your part in trying to help keep our reefs intact, and stop the criminals that use cyanide to “catch” fish.

One thing I never do is medicate my holding tanks or bring in medicated fish (Copper/Antibiotics). Many retailers use copper or other medications on a continual basis within their tanks. I prefer to use UV Sterilizers, and Protein Skimming with Ozone Generators; so what you see is what you get. Fish treated with antibiotics are more susceptible to disease as soon as they are taken off of them; it simply stifles their immune system. The long term exposure to these medications can also cause internal organ failure, which is very similar to the effects of cyanide. Copper itself is just as bad when it comes to inflicting these issues, and for this reason I feel that it should only be used when absolutely necessary, and never on a regular basis.

Tank raised fish are among one of my most favorite things to bring in. Here are a few reasons why:

• They are mari-cultured generation after generation enabling them to be used to a captive environment.
• Tank raised fish generally get along with other tank mates better.
• Almost all tank raised fish are more social, and trusting of their owners.
• Last but not least, they are exposed to controlled feeding from a early age, so they eat very well.

And when I say social, I really mean it. If this picture below doesn't prove this enough I'm not quite sure what will.

http://www.reefstuff.com/images/cellphone/tankraisedseahorse.jpg

It's truly a amazing thing to be able to have such trusting creatures like this in your tank, and I hope that one day you will be able to experience this as well.


Thank you for your time,
Ricky Soutas Jr.



BELOW ARE COMMENTS AND ANSWERS LEFT BY OTHERS:


A1. From Matt (mrgreenthumb) i would agree, however the affects are going to be minimal when in comparison to copper. Even with uv and ozone, it is impossible to create a completely sterile environment, becasue if it was, our tanks would crash. Look at uv and ozone more as preventative measures, like vitamins where as copper is like the once it gets bad enough to see the doctor sickness. You wouldn't continue to take antibiotics if you were better, because it would become less effective, and it would be just plain wasteful, but you would contine to take your vitamins. The same is true for fish for the most part.


B1. From Ricky Jr. (Mr. Reef)
Matt,

Ozone neutralizes ammonia, nitrite, organics (protein waste) and in general makes the water a lot cleaner looking as well; on top of its oxidizing benefits. The Ozone is only plumbed into the skimmer, so you aren't clearing your system out of the above mentioned in total, but your enhancing your skimmer and giving it a few additional benefits. Which, like mentioned above, improves water quality greatly but doesn't seriously impact your systems natural biological roles.

The UV sterilizer helps kill 99% of algae floating in the water, and only some organisms that cause disease. So, your water will not be perfectly sterile but it will be a whole lot cleaner. Your biological will also stay intact because after it has traveled through the UV it goes right back through your prefilter and down into your bioballs. This lets the fish be in a environment that still has a small chance of disease, but overall effectively reduces it from happening. This doesn't effect the fish in anyway and is perfectly safe for them, while once again, still maintaining your biological.

Also, to avoid having the discussion about running out of biological, your overflow is also piped through your prefilter which then lets the water seep through to your bioballs. This allows for nitrification via the Nitrosoma and Nitrobacter bacterias. In a more simple explanation, they are still having “food” dropped on them to eat. This promotes growth of the Nitrosoma and Nitrobacter bacterias and allows them to keep doing the beneficial job that they perform in our reef tanks. Denitrification occurs within sand beds by Anaerobic bacterias which keeps the nitrates in check. This is why we have a refugium on every one of our barebottom systems, and a sand bed in those without one. Keep in mind though that this is not required, but it is a extra step used in the betterment of our systems.

These combined methods help stabilize a natural environment for the reef tank that is more effective then doing nothing, which will greatly reduce the chance of disease and will not decrease the state of a fish's immune system. If anything because of the high redox potential of the water it will increase said fish's immune system, very much like humans taking the correct dosage of vitamins and drinking purified water to reduce the level of toxins we are exposed to.

[Mr. Reef]

Re-posted due to recent CDT lab reports saying that cyanide detection has increased drastically.

[Michael7979]

Re-posted due to recent CDT lab reports saying that cyanide detection has increased drastically.

Great! That make me (sick)

Not cool. :(

[reef165]

Yes, cyanide burns there gills and stomach lining, it is almost certain death for the fish! They basically last long enough to get to the hobbyist then starve to death, sure they eat, and sure they look full and healthy, but the food makes it as far as the stomach and cant digest. Poor little guys!!!!!!

[fpd4308]

I think one point that was made that is very important is regarding medicated holding tanks. I personally recommend that people not purchase fish from those who medicate(copper) their holding tanks or from those who purchase fish from places that do this. This is not for the health of the fish but to minimize or cover the symptoms of disease. That is until you get the fish home into your copper free system. Ever get a perfect looking fish and when it gets into your system it has a sudden ich outbreak? So I recommend asking some questions of your lfs.

[Drew]

wow good read.

after reading some more i didn't realize copper was actually bad (still pretty new here). i know for sure one of my LFS use copper. they even promote it likes its a GOOD thing but i've always thought it was bad (just doesn't seem right to me for some reason), and thats one reason why i would never buy fish from their tanks.

[NoobtoSalt]

I still don't see what the issue is to using copper. We are in this hobby and realize that it's not easy. The LFS that use copper are trying to medicate based on keeping them healthier. If you are buying in the mass quantities that other shops are I would be willing to bet that if half of your order started to die you would look at medicating the tanks as well. I lost 2 fish last week but I don't point the finger at the LFS as I understand that this hobby has it's pros and cons. If all of the fish lived all the time from their shipments I would be willing to bet that the shops wouldn't waste their time or money using copper.

Just a thought on the other side of things.

[Drew]

I guess i don't know the facts so bringing home a fish that has been in copper for a short/long time kind of scares me. If the fish needed copper in the first place who knows whats going to happen to that fish in my tank.

[NoobtoSalt]

I guess i don't know the facts so bringing home a fish that has been in copper for a short/long time kind of scares me. If the fish needed copper in the first place who knows whats going to happen to that fish in my tank.

A lot of shops will just use copper in their whole fish system. I agree with the whole cyanide thing but the copper and not treating sick fish makes no sense to me.

[ReeFit]

As a LFS and sponsor to this forum, I can only speak for our shop, but i do know that about 90% of the shops in this local area use copper power as well as just about all of our transhippers and wholesalers. Copper Power is safe for use in the treatment of marine fish diseases such as external parasites, ich, Oodinium, and fungus. Unlike other copper medications, Copper Power is approximately 60 times less toxic to fish. We use it to protect fish that are not infected from becoming infected from an infected source. The medicated water collum will kill the parasites, etc. What will not happen is kill the parasites that are inside the fish already. That is why it is important to choose a healthy looking fish and preferably one that is eating already because there is never a 100% chance of knowing what a fish has. Its like looking at a perfectly healthy person walking down the street and saying yep i'm sure they have cancer, you probably wouldn't know unless you asked them and since fish don't talk much, we pretty much have to guess by how they are acting. So does a LFS risk $1000's of livestock by bringing in one sick fish by accident?

[Trautman]

medicating is a good thing when it is needed... over medicating, or using it when not necessary is a bad thing. i think that it makes sense for fish stores to medicate with copper across the board even when unneeded, because the long lasting effects get passed on to the hobbyist, and there is a better short term survival rate which protects a fish store's investment...

[ReeFit]

medicating is a good thing when it is needed... over medicating, or using it when not necessary is a bad thing. i think that it makes sense for fish stores to medicate with copper across the board even when unneeded, because the long lasting effects get passed on to the hobbyist, and there is a better short term survival rate which protects a fish store's investment...

Well stated, it is common for the hobbiest to over react to the illness of a fish. I know i most certainly did when i was new to the hobby and usually did more harm to my entire tank inhabitants trying to fix the issue than good. LFS should not be overmedicating, if they are, look at the fish, if they are breathing heavy, have a lack of activity, color or lesions its most likely either not healthy or impacted by medications. You will notice a difference between fish that have been brought directly from the ocean to a LFS vs ones that have been shipped to wholesalers to transhippers then to LFS. Each tank they go into is stressfull and typically medicated. If you are unsure about a purchase at a LFS, most should be fine with holding a fish for a few days if it looks stressed or lacks the desire to eat.

[fpd4308]

I still don't see what the issue is to using copper. We are in this hobby and realize that it's not easy. The LFS that use copper are trying to medicate based on keeping them healthier. If you are buying in the mass quantities that other shops are I would be willing to bet that if half of your order started to die you would look at medicating the tanks as well. I lost 2 fish last week but I don't point the finger at the LFS as I understand that this hobby has it's pros and cons. If all of the fish lived all the time from their shipments I would be willing to bet that the shops wouldn't waste their time or money using copper.

Just a thought on the other side of things.

I know Noob always likes to be the counterpoint for every point but I have to say that there is a difference between curing a sick fish and coppering healthy fish. When I was working at a shop we did not use copper because(hopefully) the fish would not be in the shop long enough to receive a complete treatment of an illness. Usually the fish is only there long enough to mask the symptoms of illness, at least until it goes into a copper free tank, and then the symptoms return. I would prefer to see the symptoms in my tank than to have a customer take the fish home and kill their tank. Fish mortality is a cost of doing business for an lfs but it shouldn't be for the hobbyist. Now my second point. I am sure most shops that copper do so responsibly and use the minimum amount necessary to keep healthy fish. I am simply pointing out that as a consumer you should ask questions about the fish you are looking at purchasing and if you find that you are bringing home fish that seem healthy until they get in your tank something is fishy. I personally try to purchase fish from non coppered systems because I have had better luck with their long term health.

[ShaunMonahan]

Copper is not "BAD". Medication is not "Bad"

This is an amazing argument and after 10yrs of importing fish, I have to answer based I my own experience - not my opinion. The ONLY way to know how a fish has been caught (net or chemically) is to catch it yourself (or raise them). Other than that, you do not know.


medicating is a good thing when it is needed...

Agreed and always necessary to safeguard livestock/investment. ALWAYS, not just "as needed".


over medicating, or using it when not necessary is a bad thing. [/QUOTE ]

Really??? That's a nice opinion to have... So, I purpose you prepay and shell out a couple hundreds, possibly thousands of dollars on procuring some nice imported fish, have them shipped, prepay for shipping, pick them up, acclimate them, and just hope for the best... A store owner has to focus on preventative maintenance/techniques if your going to run a business and be successful. If one were to wait to "see a problem", it's already to late.

[QUOTE]i think that it makes sense for fish stores to medicate with copper across the board even when unneeded, because the long lasting effects get passed on to the hobbyist, and there is a better short term survival rate which protects a fish store's investment...

This statement contradicts the above statement about "unnecessary".

My intent here is not to pick on anyone and I apologize if this is what is taken from this post. Again, copper is not a bad treatment - nor is medicating fish to prevent disease. Do your own homework (if you are reading this post, you can do your own research as you have the great invention of the internet) know your species behaviors/diet, research compatibility and take necessary precautions (quarantine tank) and you'll be a lot more successful.

[tigerv503]

I'm totally against using cyanide as a method for catching fish. It's very harmful to the fish and can pollute marine life, corrupts the ecosystem. Thank you for the vase info on this matter Rick Jr.

Vin "Keep On Reefing"

[reef165]

This is my view on the medicating with copper. All fish inherantly have ick, but in the wild, there natural invironment they are less stressed, have "dr.'s" to help them out and such. Now just imagine the stress of being kidnaped, taken to the holding center, shipped to another holding center, then sent to a store. They don't know whats going on, they are freaked out, there imune system is down, the ick now has a chance to make it's daybew, or a fungus has a chance to spread, all sorts of illness can spread rapidly. Copper and the like is used to stop the spread of the parasites. If a fish has ick, copper wont kill it untill the ick falls off the fish to reproduce, at that time the ick isn't protected by the fish"s slime and the copper kills it, copper dosn't hide ich, it just dosn't allow the ich to make it to the sandbed and reproduce allowing for mass infestation. Part of the prob is copper isn't a fix all, copper dosn't kill fluke, tape, fungus. So yes, a fish could look healthy in a copper medicated tank, you get it home and it dies.

[Mr. Reef]

Wow, this thread has really exploded with comments about copper! I know my first post was long, but how many of you read it in full? Heck, it wasn't meant to be about the copper. That issue was merely a side note, but I will go ahead and address this for the people the people that have been misled. The statements below come from more than 18+ years of experience in this hobby and having a family member that has more 30+ years themselves.

It doesn't matter how much there is COPPER BASED MEDICATIONS ARE TOXIC TO FISH AND INVERTEBRATES, PERIOD. This is a FACT, not a theory and it has been proven time after time.

If copper medications are really so badly needed why do some of the most professional fish wholesale facilities down in LA not use copper in their main fish holding tanks? It's because they already have easier less harmful ways to keep the fish that they bring in nice and healthy with methods that are better than copper based medications to combat illness and pests. The majority of this methodology that is used was described in my very first post.

The only time a fish should ever be medicated is when the fish is visually ill and only that fish should be treated. Treating all the fish could potentially makes the ones that are currently healthy have greater chances of getting that illness/parasite. Additionally these fish don't even need to be treated with copper based medications as there is a wide array of much safer medications that work just as good or better for almost every illness/parasite out there. A few of them are even 100% natural.

The main reason why copper medications are used is simple:
THEY ARE CHEAP!
The second reason why copper medications are used:
BECAUSE THE PERSON KEEPING THE FISH ISN'T AWARE OF THE DAMAGE THAT COPPER MEDICATIONS HAVE THE ABILITY TO CAUSE, OR FLAT OUT DON'T CARE.

You really only hide the underlying issues and affect the health of your fish negatively when treating with a copper based medication. Fish taken out of copper based medication systems are much more prone to illness and parasites than if they were never in the copper based medication to begin with.

With the methods described in the first post I have never ran into a problem with fish infecting whole systems, and I believe I never will. The methods for keeping fish in the first post are almost completely flawless if done correctly. Any fish that I've received that has ever been sick has been treated with advanced techniques and quarantined. One thing I never do and never will do is give someone a sick fish. That's just ridiculous. You get quality you expect quality. I know I would.

Believe it or not I get more DOA's from shipments to me than I do from fallout in my systems, and that's saying something because the DOA rate on the orders I receive on average is less than 5%. Yes, that's right, less than 5 fish out of 100 fish that I receive die on their way to me. Anybody who has any real experience with importing fish will agree with me when I say that that is a ridiculously low percentage The funny thing is almost every shipment I receive has no DOA's. This is mainly due to the fact that I purchased these fish from quality, professional fish and coral wholesale facilities that share the same methods and ideology that I do.

Let's face it. Being shipped is a stressful time for fish and invertebrates but it is a necessary evil to bring you the fish that you want to keep. Copper based medications however have been proven to be a unnecessary evil in the process of holding fish. Anybody who says otherwise doesn't have enough experience with holding fish to be making any comments about that subject or they would already hold that truth to be self-evident.

Overall I suggest that if you haven't kept fish from a holding tank that doesn't use copper based medications you might go ahead and give them a try. The difference is surprising.

A few side-notes:

1. Once you've had Ich in your tank it stays in your tank until the day it is shut down. You can introduce a perfectly healthy fish into your tank and it can still get Ich even if it has never been present on any of your fish. Ich can come in to your tank silently just as much as it can enter in plain view.

2. It is very easy to tell if the fish you are receiving are cyanide caught, net caught, or tank raised. The DOA rates of suspected cyanide caught fish are abnormally high and you will get plenty of customers complaining about the fish they just bought from you dieing in no time. Plus, there's more than a few systems set in place for the detection of fish caught with cyanide as well as organizations that do additional checking in advance for professional wholesale fish facilities. MAC (the Marine Aquarium Council) is one of the better known ones. If a fish is MAC certified you better believe it was hand caught or net caught. Unfortunately, the use of these services is not as widespread as it should be. I feel that it is the job of every retail/wholesale facility out there to make sure that their fish are of the highest quality.


Never forget that is not the fish that have the opportunity to be in your tanks but it is your opportunity to keep fish in your tank. With that in mind make sure to treat them well. If you don't one day you might not even have the liberty of owning such interesting creatures.

-Ricky Jr.

[Lowman]

When I owned DJL, I never used copper, and Dave still doesn't I think. If you are concerned about copper medication at your LFS, ask them to do a copper test with a reputable test kit. If they use copper and can't produce a test kit, then I would turn around and walk out. The problem with copper is that a little bit is okay, but too much will kill your fish in a horrible manner.

[fpd4308]

Big +1 to Mr. Reef and Lowman

[Trautman]

Copper is not "BAD". Medication is not "Bad"




Agreed and always necessary to safeguard livestock/investment. ALWAYS, not just "as needed".



That's a nice opinion to have... So, I purpose you prepay and shell out a couple hundreds, possibly thousands of dollars on procuring some nice imported fish, have them shipped, prepay for shipping, pick them up, acclimate them, and just hope for the best... A store owner has to focus on preventative maintenance/techniques if your going to run a business and be successful. If one were to wait to "see a problem", it's already to late.



This statement contradicts the above statement about "unnecessary".

Again, copper is not a bad treatment - nor is medicating fish to prevent disease.

my statement is not contradictory. i say that it is bad to treat with copper when unnecessary, if the fish does not have ick, but i said that it "made sense for fish stores to use copper" why? because the liability of the fish is passed on to the hobbyist the hobbyist will have to deal with the negative effects. this makes sense from a buisnuss standpoint! you are protecting you investment. this does not make sense from a biological of scientific standpoint. the copper has negative effects, it is poison and it is not good for fish. the internal organs of a fish will deteriorate. the liver and the kidney most specifically, because they are what filter and removes toxins from the fish's system. these effects may not be noticeable until quite a while, probably when the fish IS OUT OF THE STORE. and who brings a fish back to a store a year, or six months later and says"hey you killed my fish! you used copper!" it is not easy to prove, and the warranty IS EXPIRED. so yes, why wouldn't a fish store ,medicate? it is a protection not to the fish, to THE BUSINESS. it does not prevent disease, it PREVENTS AND REDUCES FISH LOSS, for a limited time. so what happens when someone brings their fish into their reef tank, where no copper is used? the fish is more likely to pick up a disease with a weakened immune system, due to the POISON of copper.
just because the fish doesn't die immediately with copper, does not mean it isnt toxic.




a quarantine tank, and a hospital tank are two separate things. treat when the symptoms are prevalent, then stop when it is unneeded!
do we take antibiotics everyday? NO, just like copper to a fish, it DAMAGES the patient. it is not healthy and problems will result. we take antibiotic WHEN NEEDED.

[diverdown]

Cyanide sucks.

Having to use copper to treat my fish sucks.

Watching a fish die really sucks.

[Drew]

Mr. Reef,

Thank you for the post. Even though I am pretty new still to the saltwater world I have always thought using copper was a bad thing. Even before hearing about it here. Once I was told by a worker at my lfs they where using copper in all their fish only tanks I decided to never buy a fish there. Good thing I haven't.

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