Trying to learn about closed loops.

[tidalsculpin]

I've been reading about circulation this Thanksgiving weekend. I'm trying to understand why people go such great lengths to plumb their systems.

What I've found:
1. Many powerheads can be bad.
2. Powerheads can be good if they are quality,well placed, and on a good wavemaker.
3. Closed Loop Circulation is good for corals.
4. Many reefers secretly want to become plumbers.
5. Drilling is not that hard or complex, just time consuming.
6. Plumbing can get really complicated if you want it to be.

What I still do not understand:

1. Anthony Calfo's Closed Loop Manifold. "CLM" is this a secret cult?
2. Do most closed systems have separate return pumps and closed loop systems?
3. How do you decide where to drill holes for your loop? I understand the effluent holes but don't understand about the tank return to the pump.

[Chief]

I've been reading about circulation this Thanksgiving weekend. I'm trying to understand why people go such great lengths to plumb their systems.

What I've found:
1. Many powerheads can be bad.

** they add heat to the aquarium - may leak stray voltage - are an eyesore

2. Powerheads can be good if they are quality,well placed, and on a good wavemaker.
3. Closed Loop Circulation is good for corals.

** random flow is good for corals

4. Many reefers secretly want to become plumbers.

** just waiting for the union to recognize my skills

5. Drilling is not that hard or complex, just time consuming.
6. Plumbing can get really complicated if you want it to be.

** try to do it right the first time DOH!

What I still do not understand:

1. Anthony Calfo's Closed Loop Manifold. "CLM" is this a secret cult?

Here is an image from the advanced aquarist online mag. This is not a Closed Loop Manifold, but an open loop manifold. It is open because it draws from the sump and exits in the display. A closed loop always draws from the display and exits in the display. If this example had the pump drawing from the display it would be a closed loop manifold. The manifold equally distributes the exiting water from the pump all around the top of the display ( angled downward at differing degrees ).

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/images/sept2003/calfo1.jpg


2. Do most closed systems have separate return pumps and closed loop systems?

** Yes, a closed system will have its own pump, otherwise it is an open system.

3. How do you decide where to drill holes for your loop? I understand the effluent holes but don't understand about the tank return to the pump.

** One side sucks water out of the tank and the other side blows it back in. How do you decide? Ask lots of questions. I asked a lot of questions before I come up with my layout. Here it is:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/spayne377/240Reef/ClosedLoop.jpg

The top three holes are part of the open system for my sump. The remaining 9 holes are part of the closed loop system. The 6 small holes in the center are my returns for water flow. The small hole in the bottom is for the sparybar. The 2 big holes in the center are were the pump draws the water from.

Here is how it looks in the display.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/spayne377/240Reef/fulltank.jpg

Jay

[Nyles]

couldn't have said it better. Another plus on the CLS is energy savings vs powerheads. Adding something like an oceans motions or other to a CLS is even better.

[impur]

Until you realize that to get the flow you really want and have no equipment in the tank, you need at least a 2" intake which is an ENORMOUS hole in the glass. Or you need at least 2 1.25" intake holes.

I wish i had never drilled my tank for CLS.

It doesn't create enough flow = more PH in tank anyway.
It creates more heat than just a few PH in the tank.
It leaks.
It takes up a lot more space behind the tank and in the stand than PH.
Its much harder to remove and clean the pump.
Its louder than PHs.
Its permanent.
It costs 3 times what a couple PH do.

[Ronjunior]

Until you realize that to get the flow you really want and have no equipment in the tank, you need at least a 2" intake which is an ENORMOUS hole in the glass. Or you need at least 2 1.25" intake holes.

I wish i had never drilled my tank for CLS.

It doesn't create enough flow = more PH in tank anyway.
It creates more heat than just a few PH in the tank.
It leaks.
It takes up a lot more space behind the tank and in the stand than PH.
Its much harder to remove and clean the pump.
Its louder than PHs.
Its permanent.
It costs 3 times what a couple PH do.
I have problems with leaks and I'm not drilled; use a sump setup with overflows. (OK, usually spills from user error, but water on the floor nonetheless) I think people have spills/leaks with many a tanks, but my spills would have been decreased with closed loop. If plumbing is done right, there shouldn't be leaks in closed loop pipes...just like you shouldn't have to worry about the plumbing in your home. From what I've seen in some DIY'ers, they twist and turn pipes in directions they are not meant to be without using proper bends or elbows....when I've plumbed my homes, the pipes leak if connections are not straight. (not saying it fails for everyone, but is tougher to plumb) Fittings are meant to be glued or screwed straight on. Some fittings need plumbing putty and some need tape.
I still have a few powerheads in my tank as well, and like the fact I can redirect their flow. I have some "T"s connected to push output in different directions, but you can do that will CL too if correct pipes are used (I'll post pics in my 2 headed reef soon). My inline pump is loud, but there are quieter options and am still researching for a replacement. I think a lot goes here with heat transfer..both inline and power heads have issues.
I wonder how many people with drilled tanks still use modified pumps and/or that $300 magnetic prop, tunze, etc. etc.... My guess is probably pretty high.
Maybe in a another 5 years there will be a 1 fix setup that works for everyone, but that won't happen without all of us "tinkerers" doing the test work beforehand.

[BADBaxter]

I have thought a lot about doing a CL...
However...
CL are far more expensive to install, maintain and in their energy consumption than good PH's
for example...
Use 2000gph for the circulation and $0.10 per Kwatt.

A good CL pump alone cost ~$200-$300 and uses 2-300Watts of energy, an OM 4way is $340 plus the cost of drilling, plumbing, bulkheads and ball valves easily pushes the $800 price. It can be done for less... Will cost you ~$21.00 a month to operate.

Tunze 6000 streams with controller cost ~$800, produces 3600gph and only use 36watts of electricity. Will cost you $2.60 a month to operate. Produces more flow that the CL. Will run for 3 days on my battery backup.
In case of a power outage... I would still be fine.
JMO
Bill
Thinking about doing an open loop system for my sump return....

[Nyles]

If you did in wall you could do that surge wave system I showed you :D SWEET!

[BADBaxter]

Yes.... having 4 gallons of water surge the tank randomly about once a minute... it was nice.
Very noisy in the living room.
Might just be the thing for the classroom though.

[reefgeek84]

The only real advantage to have a CL is not having big power heads in the tank...I was going to do a CL on my tank, but when I looked at the cost of plumbing, I am just going with two eco-tech pumps in my tank...plus, you can put them on their factory battery back up and not worry about power going out...most people set up generators for thier CL to make sure it can still go during a power outage... I think these are going to be the best route...I will probably never do CL again...

[tidalsculpin]

Thanks for the respones people. I was asking about this because I think my flow is not really adequate in my current reef tank. Plus, I want to build the upcoming tidepool tank with as strong a current as possible.

I think Borneman Surge apparatus is the way to go for the tidepool + a powerful pump. I might build 2 for it.

As far as the 60 g reef is concerned, I think I am just going to upgrade my pump to an Eheim 1262 + scwd. Currently runs a rio 2500. I mgiht

BTW - Got Borneman's Aquarium Corals Book this weekend. So informative on all areas of reefkeeping. VERY HELPFUL!!!!!!!!

[impur]

I am really disappointed in how my CLS came out. I really expected a lot more. Part of its the pump, part is the OM, part is all the plumbing. Right now its all just sitting there while a couple Seio 820s handle the flow in my tank. I might just sell it all and get a ecotech. We'll see.

Problem with open loop is all the flow you have to run thru your sump to get that flow into the display = Microbubble heaven.

[mister crabs]

wont an open loop cause your skimmer to be less efficient as well since the waters moving thru sump faster?

[tidalsculpin]

I have been told before on this forum that too fast a flow will mean less water gets processed by your skimmer. There seems to be a sweet spot.

I was interested in the Calfo design because it appeared that it could be done without much drilling.
Open system or closed, like lowman mentioned, it looked simpler than all those designs I have seen many posting in the tank sections. It looked like I could run two pumps in my sump. One for the manifold and one to run the flow for the skimmer. I could drill 1 large overflow and use it for the sump inflow and the clm manifold inflow. I liked the neatness of it and the economy. I just wonder about the randomness of the flow. I am sure it is nothing like a surge device, but it sounds efficient.

[impur]

wont an open loop cause your skimmer to be less efficient as well since the waters moving thru sump faster?

Then beef up your skimmer (laugh) (nutty)

[mister crabs]

ty for the sarcastic response to a sincere question.

[mister crabs]

and pffffttt!!!!(naner)

[SeanF]

Just wait for the New Rio Polarios to come out in January. They are basically supposed to be a tunze knock off much smaller than the current Seio pumps and fully controllable but not as expensive as the Tunze pumps.

It is funny Tunze goes and makes some pumps that are much more economical to compete with the seios and then Rio creates a more upscale pump to compete against Tunzes higher end pumps. It is good for us stores because we can actually buy Rio stuff and make money on it.

[reefgeek84]

Problem with open loop is all the flow you have to run thru your sump to get that flow into the display = Microbubble heaven.

Correct, so this is why you can not relay on the return pump to make your water movement...you either need a CL or some pumps in the tank to make the water movement...

[Nyles]

The old rule of thumb is match your return pump size to your skimmer pump size, this essentially allows for best skimming percentage of water if you actually build your sump to your skimmer size and make it close to the same size as possible in that section. I made mine this way and agree it works fine but I'm sure pleanty of dirty water makes it past, the best way is drain direct to skimmer however most skimmers are not designed to handle this method.

[Nyles]

Problem with open loop is all the flow you have to run thru your sump to get that flow into the display = Microbubble heaven.

I agree, the sump should be used for skimming, heating, cooling, mechanical filtration, media (carbon, phos remover), refugium (if built properly), and maybe a time out area for bad fishies. But I would not try and make up my water turnover rates through my sump. More speed you get in there more risk of micro bubs.

[mister crabs]

sean.....any word if these new rio's are gonna leak oil like the old models?? e3veryone i know stays away from rio just because of the chance of water contamination

[Nyles]

Completly new design, highly unlikely.

[mister crabs]

good to hear

[tidalsculpin]

Have any of you ever run an "open" system with two pumps running submersed in the sump. One for display circulation instead of powerheads and one for overall tank turnover?

[SeanF]

The seios are not oil filled and I am sure the new pumps won't be either. In fact don't quote me because I don't stock all of there other pumps yet but I think they did away with the oil in all of their pumps. I believe that is the difference that made them Rio + but like I said I am not positive about that.

[WAVES]

Until you realize that to get the flow you really want and have no equipment in the tank, you need at least a 2" intake which is an ENORMOUS hole in the glass. Or you need at least 2 1.25" intake holes.

I wish i had never drilled my tank for CLS.

It doesn't create enough flow = more PH in tank anyway.
It creates more heat than just a few PH in the tank.
It leaks.
It takes up a lot more space behind the tank and in the stand than PH.
Its much harder to remove and clean the pump.
Its louder than PHs.
Its permanent.
It costs 3 times what a couple PH do.

My opinions are below, because I am still a huge fan of the CL


It doesn't create enough flow = more PH in tank anyway.
You need a better pump,
It creates more heat than just a few PH in the tank.
A decent CL pump causes very little heat, this isnt true unless your using a shottie pump IMO.
It leaks.
it doesnt leak when done properly, most of the time people use too much force, almost all your plumbing can be hand tight with teflon with zero leaks.
It takes up a lot more space behind the tank and in the stand than PH.
My new tank has about 1" behind it because my loop is through the bottom. This is common for people not wanting to view the huge gap behind there tank.
Its much harder to remove and clean the pump.
Harder to remove? a couple unions and it pulls right now,, usually people have PH stuck behind rocks or far back in the tank, IMO this is far more likely to cause unwanted fraggin. Plus you can run a CL pump for years without it requiring a cleaning (assuming you have good screens)
Its louder than PHs.
Darts are damn near silent. You will get some water in the pipes noise, but PH on a wave maker especially often are very loud, they are heard clicking on and off all the time.
Its permanent.
you can plug your bulkheads easily with PVC plugs.
It costs 3 times what a couple PH do.[/
a good loop can be had for about $350-400. That is more than some maxi jets or seios, but less than 2-3 tunze on a controller, or multiple vortex pumps (so you can have flow going more than one direction)

[WAVES]

I have thought a lot about doing a CL...
However...
CL are far more expensive to install, maintain and in their energy consumption than good PH's
for example...
Use 2000gph for the circulation and $0.10 per Kwatt.

A good CL pump alone cost ~$200-$300 and uses 2-300Watts of energy, an OM 4way is $340 plus the cost of drilling, plumbing, bulkheads and ball valves easily pushes the $800 price. It can be done for less... Will cost you ~$21.00 a month to operate.

Tunze 6000 streams with controller cost ~$800, produces 3600gph and only use 36watts of electricity. Will cost you $2.60 a month to operate. Produces more flow that the CL. Will run for 3 days on my battery backup.
In case of a power outage... I would still be fine.
JMO
Bill
Thinking about doing an open loop system for my sump return....



OK I went through this in another thread. I crunched all the numbers with a dart compared to 2 tunze. It would take you 9 years to make up the cost between a dart and 2 tunze from "savings" of power. $21 a month? where did that come from! imagine if it costs $21 a month to run 160 watts of power, my 100w GE light bulbs would cost me a fortune! it cost about $0.34 a day (160w uses 1 kw every 6.25 hours, thats roughly 4 kw per day, at $0.084 per kw, thats $0.34 a day). that comes out to $10 a month.

[Nyles]

I agree these "Facts" are getting a little inflated.

[siskiou]

My new tank has about 1" behind it because my loop is through the bottom. This is common for people not wanting to view the huge gap behind there tank.



I noticed this part and have a question: how do you do this in a tank with substrate?
Does the intake stick up through the substrate?
And how are the returns positioned?
Any pics?

[WAVES]

Have any of you ever run an "open" system with two pumps running submersed in the sump. One for display circulation instead of powerheads and one for overall tank turnover?

The problem is that still puts you with too much flow through the sump ( at least to get enough flow for the tank) it will be near impossible to not have microbubbles.

IMO sump rate and skimmer skimming rate have nothing to do with each other. I see no reason why there would be any corrilation between the two. Especially if your using a reserc pump, are people only going to run 200gph in sumps now? just doesnt add up.

[WAVES]

I noticed this part and have a question: how do you do this in a tank with substrate?
Does the intake stick up through the substrate?
And how are the returns positioned?
Any pics?

Ill post some photos later, bascially Ive got 2 secitions next to my overflow that have there own little "boxes" like an overflow box. These have a large (4 x 12") hole drilled in each one (square hole). This hole is about 5" up off the bottom, thus sand shouldnt be going in it. These boxes will have screens over them. This also makes it so there is very little suction power from the pumps, which will keep anemones etc from being pulled into it.

[siskiou]

Ill post some photos later, bascially Ive got 2 secitions next to my overflow that have there own little "boxes" like an overflow box.

Thanks! Looking forward to seeing the photos!

[impur]

You need a better pump
I researched pump before buying and found iwaki have some of the best reviews out there. I found a Panworld pump (made by former iwaki engineer) and thats what i use. It sucks. You are right there, i need a better pump but i can't rely on any reviews obviously.

A decent CL pump causes very little heat, this isnt true unless your using a shottie pump IMO.
Name a decent pump that doesn't put heat into the water for me that i won't have to sell my car to buy.

it doesnt leak when done properly, most of the time people use too much force, almost all your plumbing can be hand tight with teflon with zero leaks.
Little known fact is that using teflon tape does not create a seal on the threads. I know, i used teflon tape at every threaded connection and half of them leak. All hand tightened. Teflon paste is better for this application.

My new tank has about 1" behind it because my loop is through the bottom. This is common for people not wanting to view the huge gap behind there tank.
The majority of tanks have tempered bottoms so this doesn't apply to most ppls tanks(save for acrylic). Sure would be nice though.

Harder to remove? a couple unions and it pulls right now,, usually people have PH stuck behind rocks or far back in the tank, IMO this is far more likely to cause unwanted fraggin. Plus you can run a CL pump for years without it requiring a cleaning (assuming you have good screens)
Yes, but there is water left that leaks out. In my case i have to remove my CA reactor, remove the OM device, and spill about a gallon of water. There is an easy, albeit expensive way to fix this though, true union ball valves.

Darts are damn near silent. You will get some water in the pipes noise, but PH on a wave maker especially often are very loud, they are heard clicking on and off all the time.
But you must have a 2" intake for a Dart. Not many ppl feel comfortable with a 4" hole in the glass.

you can plug your bulkheads easily with PVC plugs.
Exactly what i did. Looks tacky though.

a good loop can be had for about $350-400. That is more than some maxi jets or seios, but less than 2-3 tunze on a controller, or multiple vortex pumps (so you can have flow going more than one direction)
Yah if you shop around, find deals on used equip and don't make a single plumbing error.

[Nyles]

Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed Miles?

[impur]

No, did i come across as cranky? If so don't take it that way, was not meant to be mean or negative, just some of my experiences with these CL. Joel is the man! I was just responding to his response.

On a side note i would really like to get mine going. I might buy a smaller return pump and put my current one on the CL, then sell the Panworld. Panworld sucks plain and simple. No customer service, and crappy pumps! Don't believe what you read or hear.

Anyone know the max flow thru a 1" pipe anyway? I can't seem to find an answer and i'm assuming about 1000gph max

[Nyles]

I would guess more... Lemme look.

I can't find anything, I used 1 1/2" for 1200 gph split 3 ways off my dart. I usually go with whats on the pupm output side and taper down from whats on the pump to my splits.

[fly guy]

Im not even going to argue any of the other points. But as far as matching your skimmer processing to your return pump. You should. I have done fairly extensive experiments proving for myself that your skimmer is more efficient by doing so. Joel...8 months ago i used to not believe it myself. I figured as long as your skimmer is processing the same amount of water, who cares how much water the return pump is moving.

Wrong. I started the experiments with the idea in mind that i was going to prove the people who said they need matched wrong. I failed. I proved them right. If you want me to go into detail on how i did these experiments I can do so. Moral to the story that when processing dirtier water your going to get more nasties out overall instead of processing cleaner, already skimmed water.

On that same token i dont really think the "recirculating" concept in skimmers is worth a crap....its just wasting energy (treading water if you will)that could be spent on processing dirtier/unskimmed water.

A cls is not cheaper top run than powerheads, not even close. But a cls done right can do better everywhere flow than a bunch of powerheads in the tank and have far less maintenance. Tunze on a controller included if you spend a fairly equal amount of money on the systems.

And the most important thing IMO is i dont want to look at powerheads or even plumbing in my reefs. I just want reef. If that costs 2-3(or more) times as much in electricity.....so be it.

[Nyles]

The only time I don't agree is when there is lots of free floating contaminants. I had HA and had to pump up the turnover of my sump because I wanted to add and use effectively more mechanical filtration, this essentially helped remove free floating hair algae that was dying off, also another great idea if you used flatworm exit to increase carbon and worm removal for short periods of time. I would match but make you system capable of pushing more water for emergency situations like needing more mechanical filtration, but only if necessary. Plus it never hurts to overbuild.

[powdertang05]

i did what melev did with pvc and its works awesome i just hear a small hum and its putting 1200 gph through my system with no problem i wish i had gone with a pan world or a blue line so it would cut energy and noise but this genx 40 is flippin awesome i alspo drilledf my other tank and the bulheads never leak so no complains here

[WAVES]

You need a better pump
I researched pump before buying and found iwaki have some of the best reviews out there. I found a Panworld pump (made by former iwaki engineer) and thats what i use. It sucks. You are right there, i need a better pump but i can't rely on any reviews obviously.



A decent CL pump causes very little heat, this isnt true unless your using a shottie pump IMO.
Name a decent pump that doesn't put heat into the water for me that i won't have to sell my car to buy.
Sequence Snapper, at only 100 watts, and not submerged will add next to nothing for heat. 2500 gph (not sure what you need) at $185
it doesnt leak when done properly, most of the time people use too much force, almost all your plumbing can be hand tight with teflon with zero leaks.
Little known fact is that using teflon tape does not create a seal on the threads. I know, i used teflon tape at every threaded connection and half of them leak. All hand tightened. Teflon paste is better for this application. could be Ive never used the paste. although what about it getting into the water column?

My new tank has about 1" behind it because my loop is through the bottom. This is common for people not wanting to view the huge gap behind there tank.
The majority of tanks have tempered bottoms so this doesn't apply to most ppls tanks(save for acrylic). Sure would be nice though. I prefer glass over acrylic anyday. I think when you get upto 125gal or larger the bottoms are not tempered. I dont think anything on Oceanic is tempered but I could be wrong.

Harder to remove? a couple unions and it pulls right now,, usually people have PH stuck behind rocks or far back in the tank, IMO this is far more likely to cause unwanted fraggin. Plus you can run a CL pump for years without it requiring a cleaning (assuming you have good screens)
Yes, but there is water left that leaks out. In my case i have to remove my CA reactor, remove the OM device, and spill about a gallon of water. There is an easy, albeit expensive way to fix this though, true union ball valves. I agree true union ball valves are perfect. I did discover Lows has 1.5" for $22 (i think it was) and 2" for $35, it also saves on the length of the plumbing if in a smaller space.

Darts are damn near silent. You will get some water in the pipes noise, but PH on a wave maker especially often are very loud, they are heard clicking on and off all the time.
But you must have a 2" intake for a Dart. Not many ppl feel comfortable with a 4" hole in the glass. you do not need to use a 2" intake, and the hole size is 3", you can actually run 1" in and 3/4 out on a dart, it will simply consume less power and have less flow. Darts can safely be dialed back to 400gph without any risk to the pump, smaller plumbing will lower the flow, but they have pretty mad flow as it is.

you can plug your bulkheads easily with PVC plugs.
Exactly what i did. Looks tacky though. I suppose if you can see them your totally right. Mine (on my new tank) will all be covered with rock etc so I could hide them easily. Get some GSP and glue em on :)

a good loop can be had for about $350-400. That is more than some maxi jets or seios, but less than 2-3 tunze on a controller, or multiple vortex pumps (so you can have flow going more than one direction)
Yah if you shop around, find deals on used equip and don't make a single plumbing error. $225 for a dart, $60 for true unions (more expensive route), $50 for bulkheads still leaves you $75 for asst plumbing

see above in Red, wont let me post without writing something here...

[Ronjunior]

I think when you get upto 125gal or larger the bottoms are not tempered. I dont think anything on Oceanic is tempered but I could be wrong.
My new 125g All-Glass brand aquarium has a tempered bottom and so was my 135g (unknown brand, but trusted the sticker they posted on the bottom to not drill). If I remember correctly from their site, you can special order All-Glass brand aquariums with plate bottoms and also get predrilled holes from the factory!

[Nyles]

On a side note my 155 is tempered as well.

[WAVES]

ya I sell more Perfecto rather than AGA (only due to my sources) I am notibly less familiar with AGA.

[Nyles]

I think pretty much all AGA tanks have tempered bottoms. At least in moderate sizes

[Ronjunior]

I think pretty much all AGA tanks have tempered bottoms. At least in moderate sizes
Here's copy from AGA Faq's page.

Can I drill holes in my aquarium for external filters?

Maybe, many of our aquariums are made with tempered glass in the bottom. Tempered glass cannot be drilled. Non-tempered glass panels may be drilled by a qualified technician. In some cases, you may special order All-Glass aquariums pre-drilled with the MegaFlow or Twin-Flow overflow systems. You could also special order, in some cases, an aquarium with non-tempered glass if you wanted to have it drilled outside of our facility. If you have an older tank that you want to drill, don’t take any chances - if you are not sure that the glass is non-tempered, do not drill it.
------------------------------------------------
Does All-Glass make custom aquariums?

We can accommodate some special order situations. At All-Glass, our primary business deals with stock size aquariums that ranging from 2 ½ gallons through 210 gallons. Most people are able to find a tank in that range that will fit their needs. We do drill tanks and install overflow boxes on a regular basis. We are also able to make some modifications to pre-existing stock sizes such as making a tank with a different height than a stock size. Special orders do take a little longer than stock sizes to complete and will involve additional charges. Please consult your dealer with specific questions. Please note: We do not manufacture custom aquarium outside of the standard footprint of our aquariums. Please contact Oceanic Systems for custom aquariums outside our standard footprint.

[mister crabs]

what about oceanic tanks? I would love to drill the bottom of my 40 gal stretch hex but unsure if its tempered. Oceanic never returned my emails and it didnt come with a sticker in it saying whether it was tempered or not.

[impur]

Damn Joel you really do rock! Can you really plumb a dart with 1"!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Dude i almost bought a dart but i thought i HAD to have a 2" intake. Here is what killed the idea for me.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/impur/upgrade/P1010003.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/impur/upgrade/P1010004.jpg

The hole for this bulkhead is 4". I just didn't feel comfortable with that large of a hole in my glass. So i bought the Panworld because of the great reviews. Well its got a 1" intake and a 1" output, but you have to restrict the flow at least 50% to get it to stop cavitating. I've talked to several other ppl who have the same problem with this pump. So instead of the 1200gph i wanted i get maybe 500. If i can plumb a dart to my existing 1" intake and just throttle it back to roughly 1000gph i think i would be so happy i'd faint.

[WAVES]

You bet man, I thought I should have posted my response on here instead of the LPP thingamajig,,

I would screw a 1.25" female adapter onto your bulkhead (you should be able to find an elbow with female threads) then go upto 1.5" upto the pump, many of the darts I recieve now a days come with a reducer down to 1.5" standard in the box. Then run 1" for your outputs, I think this would yeild the best flow for your sized bulkheads.

You must have a odd bulkhead, even at sch80 2" that I carry are a 3" hole.

Id always run 2 x 1.5" if you were designing it from scratch, they are much easier to find screens for (like the flat spa style I sell) and combine them into a 2" pipe. the only think Id use a 2" bulkhead is for the intake when running a dart on the sump, then you dont care so much about suction power or the looks of the screens.

[WAVES]

what about oceanic tanks? I would love to drill the bottom of my 40 gal stretch hex but unsure if its tempered. Oceanic never returned my emails and it didnt come with a sticker in it saying whether it was tempered or not.

I called my vendor for another question about Oceanic, Ill see if he can find out for me. Do you know if your tank is the "contrast collection"?

[tidalsculpin]

Ok so close loop is the way to go. Nice pump, pvc, bulkheads, strategic drilling placement. I think I'm confused. Has anyone ever tried running circulation up in the canopy? Seems like you could avoid drilling and cut down on microbubbles.

[fly guy]

Ok so close loop is the way to go. Nice pump, pvc, bulkheads, strategic drilling placement. I think I'm confused. Has anyone ever tried running circulation up in the canopy? Seems like you could avoid drilling and cut down on microbubbles.

i run my returns on both tanks up and over the top...down and across the front left and right sides.........goes along with my no piping visible as the canopy hides the outlets....back siphon is a non issue as well as the water simply falls away from the outlets

microbubbles are a non issue anywhere if you plumb stuff right on your cls as well as dont try to move too much flow through a sump not designed to handle it

[reefgeek84]

Joel...I would like to see a CL put together for 400 bucks or less...the cheapest one can find a good low heat transfer pump for is (dart in this case) is 215.00 and if you want some sort of Wave contraption, that best bet is an OM, a used 4 way that will handle the dart is 200.00, we are all ready above the 400.00, not to mention plumbing...union ball valves will run you 100-200 bucks (depending how you set it up), bulk heads, are about 10 bucks a peice...so that is 40 bucks...plus 20 bucks in PVC, plus all the misc stuff that goes with it...if one goes with loc line, that is roughly another 70 bucks...CL's are not cheap, not to mention the hassle of plumbing it...

With the vortech's, you get half a pop can in the tank (not bad at all) 3700gph, that is good...not to mention the battery back up...that is worth its weight in gold with this hobby...Really CL's are no good to me...CL's have their place, but not in all and most tanks...

I hate tunze's and seios, simply for the girth that they take up in the tank...if vortechs, were not around I would still be going with a CL...

[Liquid Hobby]

I'll jump into the fray here... I went CL primarily to not have power heads and multiple electircal devices inside a box of water. It does not leak. The 2 largest culprits to heat are my lights and the mag7 in sump return pump, the skimmer pump is probably adding to the heat also! I too got a Panworld, got it used on the cheap, works great for my small tank (40G). When I do a larger system I'll do a CL again with an OM device. All my plumbing turns away from the stand and goes into the garage.

I'll try to post some pics of my plumbing. The 4 vertical pipes are the CL returns (1 1/4"), the center pipes is the CL drain (1 1/2"), the curved one is my experimental return (loud at high flow rates but silent otherwise) and the returns are the outer most lines that are split in sump via SCWD (too scared to put a 3 way clamped device, under pressure in the house...

The second pic is the final fresh water test to show the locline outlets. I've since changed the nozzle arrangement. Over all I'm happy. I just wished I'd plumbed for a 4 way OM off the bat and listened to Joel and started with a larger tank...

[Liquid Hobby]

f vortechs, were not around I would still be going with a CL...

Got a link for this vortech thingy?

I did my CL for less than $400, but it does not have a wave device. Used PanWorld $70 or $100 (I conveniently can't remember). Plumbing wasn't too bad, most expensive part is the $2.30/foot of spa flex. Definitely not $300 worth though. So, if I added a wave device I'd need to add 4 X 1 1/4" true unions and the OM 4 way. That would put it over $400, unless I got the OM used...

[WAVES]

LOL hey Todd, now youre in trouble, I know your screen name GOTCHA!

Brandon, I agree, a CL is NOT the best in every situation, but I am giving my side of the story and stating the facts as I know them.

There are thousands of ways to make a reef tank successful, most of us simply plead our case based on the knowledge we have come to understand. I am simply standing up for what I feel is a bonifed legitamate way to successfully have a reef tank at a reasonable cost.

With that said. a OM is a wonderful device, wonderful enough I am putting one on my personal system. Is it required for a successful CL system? NO! a successful CL does not need to be a plumbing gods work of genious.

Case and point. Next time you are in waves, take a look at the CL system on the cube tank near the front door. Simple as this, ONE 1.5" intake BH, DOLPHIN pump (since it was there when I bought the shop, otherwise it would be a Dart) and TWO output 1" bulkheads. The results: amazing.

[WAVES]

FYI Todd, here is the Vortech "thingy"
http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_powerheads_pumps_icecap_ecotech_marine_vo rtech_propeller.asp?CartId=

[WAVES]

[QUOTE=Liquid Hobby;21993]So, if I added a wave device I'd need to add 4 X 1 1/4" true unions and the OM 4 way. QUOTE]


I think most people including myself use the 1.5" in and 1" output, thus 1" true unions. That'll save ya like $4!

[reefgeek84]

LOL hey Todd, now youre in trouble, I know your screen name GOTCHA!

Brandon, I agree, a CL is NOT the best in every situation, but I am giving my side of the story and stating the facts as I know them.

There are thousands of ways to make a reef tank successful, most of us simply plead our case based on the knowledge we have come to understand. I am simply standing up for what I feel is a bonifed legitamate way to successfully have a reef tank at a reasonable cost.

With that said. a OM is a wonderful device, wonderful enough I am putting one on my personal system. Is it required for a successful CL system? NO! a successful CL does not need to be a plumbing gods work of genious.

Case and point. Next time you are in waves, take a look at the CL system on the cube tank near the front door. Simple as this, ONE 1.5" intake BH, DOLPHIN pump (since it was there when I bought the shop, otherwise it would be a Dart) and TWO output 1" bulkheads. The results: amazing.

No I understand...Like I said...if I did not go with the Vortechs, then I would go CL. But i guess my idea of doing it "right" is completely different...and that includes an OM, and that is where it gets expensive...so I guess its all relative.

I still have a soft spot for CL's...

[mister crabs]

I called my vendor for another question about Oceanic, Ill see if he can find out for me. Do you know if your tank is the "contrast collection"?


yes i believe it is....its the one they sell at PETCO for like 250 bux and i got it for 40 when they did their $1 a gallon tank sale on AGA tanks and someone in pricing screwed up! lol

If you could find out for me that would be AWESOME! thanks!

[Liquid Hobby]

LOL hey Todd, now youre in trouble, I know your screen name GOTCHA!


well, I guess I outed myself... I'm the same screen name on RC.

So, the vortech thingy is $350ea! How many do you need to create the flow you want? At least 2 right, plus a battery back up for each or can one battery back up two pumps?

My CL is looking like a killer deal: $100 used pump, $50 in locline and if I added a 4 way OM for $350, $150 for plumbing (which I think is too high) I'm all in for $650 with multiple outlets vs close to $1K for the vortechs without a controller...

[reefgeek84]

well, I guess I outed myself... I'm the same screen name on RC.

So, the vortech thingy is $350ea! How many do you need to create the flow you want? At least 2 right, plus a battery back up for each or can one battery back up two pumps?

My CL is looking like a killer deal: $100 used pump, $50 in locline and if I added a 4 way OM for $350, $150 for plumbing (which I think is too high) I'm all in for $650 with multiple outlets vs close to $1K for the vortechs without a controller...

You only 2 vortechs on a tank that is smaller then 180gals... 150, is not to low for plumbing, depending how many union ball valves you use, it could be higher, plus you are use spa flex, so that will be more...

But here is the deal...Find me something that will run your pump when the power goes out for 24hours for 150 bucks...Good luck :D ...Plus depending how you have the vortechs set up, you would only need one battery back up in a power outage, that will get you enough water movement for that period of time...and they are coming out with a controller, you will have much better options then an OM...

ON tanks that are smaller then 50gals, I think CL are cheaper...but when you get over 75gals and add an OM and a much bigger pump then you have (which you will need, a dart like we are talking, that used is 190.00 shipped)...

to each his own...but a bigger CL that is done with an OM, and plumbing that allows you to disconnect all pieces with out water spillage will run you well over 600 bucks, not to mention time...

[nu2reef-n]

I just put together a closed loop for around $600.00 with an oceansmotions 4-way, powered by a barracuda. I have no microbubble issues, I have quite a bit of flow in my 150 gal. tank, haven't had a chance to calculate the power usage yet. I'm glad I went with a closed loop as I don't like all kinds of equipment hanging in the tank.

[tidalsculpin]

I think I found what I am looking for.

The Melev SCWD CLS.--- This would be more than adequate for a 40 breeder,no drilling, few bubbles.
Separate from sump. Maybe just upgrade to a mag 7 for the forty gallon.
Agreed?

http://www.melevsreef.com/how_to_build.html

[reefgeek84]

I think I found what I am looking for.

The Melev SCWD CLS.--- This would be more than adequate for a 40 breeder,no drilling, few bubbles.
Separate from sump. Maybe just upgrade to a mag 7 for the forty gallon.
Agreed?

http://www.melevsreef.com/how_to_build.html

the scwd, eats flow up...

[tidalsculpin]

Do you think you could put an om on his system? Is ther an om 2?

[WAVES]

Thats classic! thats pretty much what Liquid Hobby was running. Im sure he will chime in.

[Nyles]

I get so tired... of this.... BS... LOL... Live and let learn

[Ronjunior]

Can't wait to see what they come up with for the next decade. I've checked out many books from the library lately and it's amazing to see the progress made in marine aquariums in the past 10 years. One book said to NOT put rock of any sort in the tank, which now seems to be an expensive goal in good natural filtration. I remember seeing something about how far out of reach using skimmers and ozone were too; and good luck keeping anything more than fish alive in the tank with plastic plants and fake coral.
Many of the books made no mention of closed or open loops....just bubbles and undergravel...which wasn't that long ago..so no wonder the jury is out!

[powdertang05]

well i did what melev did i also have a 40 and i didnt drill it i did his plans in a way except the scwd and bought a pcx40 gen x one and the pvc and glue and borrowed a pipe cutter it cost me 180 bucks i found it too be quite cheap! and i bought lock line for the out puts for a y and i think that was like 10 so i guess 190 really. if you want pics i can take them it puts out about 1200 into the take and it made my tank 1 degree warmer. it does have a slight hum though but i really dont want to put a dart on this tank lol way too much.

[Liquid Hobby]

I will jump in... I've got a SCWD but I use it on my returns.

I do not trust the SCWD to sit out of the tank with some vinyl tubing that is merely clipped on. I'm sure people run it that way, but I just see blown hoses, broken clips and 30 gallons of water on the rug at 3AM... (hope for the best but plan for the worst)! Because of that, I would not hook it up to my CL outside the tank. I also didn't want it in the tank. My first CL attemp was a Mag12 driven externally on the CL. It was super loud and I've read the pump will eventually leak... It's really not an external pump.

My SCWD is hooked up directly off the return pump right in the sump. I then run 2 returns to the tank. This way, when the SCWD fails, which it will, I'll be in the sump which is in the garage...

Personally, the SCWD is a great device as long as you take it for what it is... The OMs on other devices are more expensive for a reason. To do it again, I'd pay more for beefed up device. Remember, these things run 24/7.

[Liquid Hobby]

You only 2 vortechs on a tank that is smaller then 180gals... 150, is not to low for plumbing, depending how many union ball valves you use, it could be higher, plus you are use spa flex, so that will be more...

But here is the deal...Find me something that will run your pump when the power goes out for 24hours for 150 bucks...Good luck :D ...Plus depending how you have the vortechs set up, you would only need one battery back up in a power outage, that will get you enough water movement for that period of time...and they are coming out with a controller, you will have much better options then an OM...

ON tanks that are smaller then 50gals, I think CL are cheaper...but when you get over 75gals and add an OM and a much bigger pump then you have (which you will need, a dart like we are talking, that used is 190.00 shipped)...

to each his own...but a bigger CL that is done with an OM, and plumbing that allows you to disconnect all pieces with out water spillage will run you well over 600 bucks, not to mention time...

Well, I guess I need to look into alternate power source for when the power does fail... Add that to the list! No way I can get a $150 dvice to run my panworld for a day. I can just reach into the tank and swoosh some water around with my hand a few times an hour!!!(laugh)