Depressing

[andy]

When I started up my tank about 3 months ago, I decided to stick with easier species -- soft corals and maybe some LPS. Then Saltwater Fantaseas had thair brownout sale, and I picked up a couple of frags and a medium sized colony for a song. I didn't plan on adding any more until I got lucky and won some beautiful frags at the BBQ.

Now, a couple of months later, things haven't gone so well for my small-polyp buddies. (sad)

Two of the brownout frags have died, a Monti dig. and an Acro. They went quick.

My pink Stylo (who was doing really well!) got attacked by a asterina and now looks like this:
http://reef.eldersign.org/images/dead_stylo.jpg

The brownout Acro. colony is on the way out:
http://reef.eldersign.org/images/sick_acro.jpg

The Tort looks pretty much gone:
http://reef.eldersign.org/images/sick_a-tort.jpg

...and the A. sarmentosa has just started RTNing at the tips:
http://reef.eldersign.org/images/sick_a-sarmentosa.jpg

My sytem seems pretty much solid:
80F
1.025
Ca 400-440
Alk 9.5 - 10.5 (have had some trouble keeping this above 8 in the past, maybe part ofthe problems?)
NH3, NO3, NO2 at zero
Pretty good flow (25-30x)
2x175W 10K MH + VHO Actinic
Phosban + carbon
Skimming might be a bit light, but water is crystal clear
15% water change every 2 weeks

I've been feeding phyto and rotifers. All my softies are doing great, and the LPS are growing and splitting like weeds. I know I'm pushing it with SPS in so young a tank, I'm not adding any more for at least 3 or 4 months probably longer. I'm just puzzled about *why* these corals have done so poorly. What is it that changes in a more mature tank that allows SPS to thrive? Or, maybe I'm doing something fundamentally wrong? Adding top-off water too quickly and creating a low-salinity stream maybe? (nutty)

Anyways, I'm sticking with LPS and softies for the forseeable future. I don't want to be responsible for killing off any more corals that might otherwise thrive in another tank.

[ringwurm]

What kind of salt are you using?

I was using oceanpure and was having very similar results. My boron levels were really high and magnesium levels were really low. I'm in the process of switching salts right now to see if it makes things better.

[andy]

Kent. Magnesium is fine. Don't know about Boron.

[DChemist]

How often (and how much) do you change carbon?
Which softies and LPS do you have?

[reefboy]

what is the ph measure first thing in the mourning before lights go on then a few hours after they've ben on to see if your getting a swing in ph

[andy]

I was using those carbon-impregnated sheets of filter material, but am moving away from them to a mixture of Phosban and carbon in my reactor. I change the sheet (it was between 2 baffles in my sump) every month, this last one is due to come out this weekend and not be replaced. I'll change out the Phos-ban/Carbon mix every 2 months.

The pH swings from 8.1 to 8.3, though I haven't checked the daily range in a while. I'll check it tomorrow morning/evening.

Softies/LPS in the tank:
Tubipora musica
Actinodiscus sps. mushrooms
Sinularia flexibilis (supposed to be tough on SPS, but this is a 1" frag and at least 12" away from the SPS)
Euphyllia sps. (2x Torch, 1x Hammer)
Zoanthus sps.
Phyllangia or Rhizosmilia sps. cup corals

[powdertang05]

well what i would recommend looking at your states is you need to keep your temp stable it should be at 78 no more no less also your skimming must be alot if you dont skimmer 24/7 or have a under rated skimmer that will be your down fall. just because you think your waters crystal clear doesnt mean it is. what i would have to say is take your sps's and any other corals to your local lfs then just try to keep levels in check at all times once your levels dont very at all then i would say try them out again until then your levels in my guess is that are going form up to down and back and forth the corals will not like that at all. and sometimes the frga is just bad or the colony is just a crappy one dotn give up but please do not waste anymore of your money on corals until your levels stay the same always

[Lowman]

Andy, do you have a calcium reactor? Are you dosing any strontium? Bring me a sample of water on Saturday to Fantaseas and I'll test it for you. Hell my temp swings from 77 to 82 during the day, so that's not necessarily your problem. How much flow do you have going through your phosban reactor? Too much flow will break down the media and wreck havoc on sps. I would also drop your salinity down to 1.023 or 1.024. Do you have any powerheads blowing water around in the tank? A closed loop? Sps like a lot of flow near them. How high in the tank are they?

[fly guy]

Sorry to hear of your troubles. : (
Nothing jumps out at me. How are you testing?? Curious what some salifert results say if youre not already.

Sorry man.

[Reefin']

i would cut back on the phyto and rotifer feeding....like once or twice a week...it can foul water conditions quickly...maybe target feed ..use sparingly.......also i dont think your PH swings are the cause either or the temp swings.......ive heard phosban has been linked to sps RTN...needs to rinsed good and low flow thru it........carbon/phosban should be changed more often than u plan...once a month at a minimum...and also those carbon impregnated filter pads should be changed frequently......gunk build up sittin there is no good...one last thing maybe more light... how tall is your tank?.......

it use to be said that only mature tanks could support SPS, but what it comes down too is that you gain more experience as the tank matures....now with the knowledge thats out there anybody can do it...even witha three month old tank......dont give up on the SPS just yet, just need to modify your tank husbandry a little ...youll get it soon.....:D

IMO three things that SPS mainly need: FLOW, LIGHT, and low NUTRIENTS

[andy]

No calcium reactor here, I'm dosing Kent Coral Builder for Alk and Kent Liquid Reactor for Ca. My calcium is staying pretty stable, there isn't much using it in the tank.. mostly coralline. Alk has swung a bit more, if it matters you can see my levels at http://reef.eldersign.org/aquarium_log.htm.

Flow through the Phosban is low, maybe 75 gph or less -- not grinding up the media, for sure. The tank has two powerheads for main flow (Seio 820 and a MJ600 modded to about 750 gph), plus I'm running maybe 300 gph through the sump.

Skimming may be the weak point, I dunno. I'm skimming dry (can't adjust my current skimmer), and pulling out *maybe* a 1/4 cup every week or two... but the bioload int he tank is really low (Yellow Tang and two Osc. clowns). I don't have anything to compare it to.

The SPS were high in the tank, and were getting good flow.

I'm not dosing Strontium, but keep up on my water changes and don't really have much that would consume it (I think...)

The only other thing that really comes to mind is the green algae. I'll blow off the liverock every day or two and let snowstorm of suspended algae filter down into the sump. The algae isn't suspended for more than 10 minutes or so, could that be part of the problem? It isn't hammering the nitrogen cycle, I know that.

Thanks for all the help and advice, guys. No matter how much I read and research, so much of this hobby is still an art -- hard to get that from reading an article.


EDIT: The Phosban is a recent addition, a good chunk of my problems came before I added it to the system. Thanks for the advice about changing it more often. Also, I'm using the Ferrous stuff... supposedly it is the Aluminum-based stuff that causes some RTN problems <shrug>

The tank is about 18" deep, the 2x175W should be okay, right? Maybe my phto period is too long and I'm cooking the coral? Currently, the VHO actinic comes on at 9 am, then the MH at 2pm, the MH off at 9pm, the VHO off at 10pm. Blue LED moonlights come on before/after the VHO.

[DChemist]

I don't have a lot to contribute- or a lot of experience with SPS...

In the tort photo, are those urchin tube feet on the right?

I was told it is best to change carbon weekly (don't need to use much, perhaps a cup). I would also confirm your phosphate is unmeasurable.

[andy]

Yes, that's a pincusion urchin you can see -- good eyes :-) He's also in the sarmentosa shot.

Change carbon every week? That sounds like a lot, especially since it is in the reactor with the Phosban... that stuff is too spendy to change weekly. Can't see week-old carbon being a nitrate problem, or is it something else?

[Lowman]

also maybe you should try a auto top off system You can use a bucket with a hole drilled into it and a spigot in the hole.

[Michael7979]

Andy PM sent

[Nyles]

EDIT: The Phosban is a recent addition, a good chunk of my problems came before I added it to the system. Thanks for the advice about changing it more often. Also, I'm using the Ferrous stuff... supposedly it is the Aluminum-based stuff that causes some RTN problems <shrug>

Andy, you would be suprised how long "phosban" lasts If your using the kent sponge get it out of there, I know everyone has their opinion but I run my media (Phosban) for about 3-4 months at a time with no trouble (currently running about 4 months). I have never had a SPS just RTN for no reason. Keep looking but thats unlikely the problem (if your not using the aluminum based). You just need to make sure you not getting any levels of ph04.

I would before you do any large changes look at your flow and lighting conditions, flow first. I didnt see your photo period posted? and how old are the lights?

[DChemist]

The carbon would be to combat allelopathy between the corals. From Borneman's Aquarium Corals, "Sinularia flexibilis is a particularly toxic species to other reef inhabitants, with strong terpenes called flexibilide and dihydro-flexibilide... being acutely detrimental to (at least) some species of Acropora... In fact, many Sinularia species are classified as being in the 'most toxic' category... Anecdotally, it seems that this is even more pronounced in aquariums, where repeated reports of stony coral demise... occur regularly in the presence of multiple, large, nearby, or even isolated Sinularia specimens."

Just a thought.

[Nyles]

If you are using the aluminum based stuff its recemmended change every other day, honestly with that cycle I wouldn't trust it. Get it out (Im assuming this is Kent Sponge)

[funstarfish]

There was a list of the 3 most important factors for SPS. Id say probably in this order...
1. stability
2. flow
3. lighting

keep alk. CA, salinity, nutrients, etc stable and i think you are singing a different song. now how to reach that stability? thats the question... auto topoff like bob said would be a start. also, 2 part supplements should be used for CA and Alk replenishment as they are balanced to keep swings and imbalanced (precip) in check.

[impur]

Looking at your graphs, they are fluctuating way to much for SPS. Even if your alk and calcium were perfectly constant, that one large SG swing you had could have done in all your SPS just like that. Now adding to that stress is the fluctuation of your calcium and alk. There are a few ways to make things more stable. As stated, an ATO is essential for SPS, SG cannot swing much. Next you need to figure out exactly how much your tanks uptake of alk and calcium is day to day and adjust your supplementation of these to match. Without a CA reactor its a little more work but certainly obtainable. I used those Sealab calcium blocks for calcium and they did a wonderful job keeping calcium stable. With the blocks taking care of calcium i had to figure out exactly how much superbuffer to add each morning. That took about a week and after i had that all figured out, my SPS really took off. Better PE, color and growth. That is until i got the AEFW, but thats in the past now :D
Another option would be to begin dosing kalk.

Keep at it, it takes some time.

[andy]

I'm definitely starting to think the problem is stability too. Guess I'm looking at either Kalk or a Ca Reactor, eh? Or do you think it's possible using buffers?

Flow is good, light is good.

[Nyles]

After looking at the chart, I would recommend a calcium reactor, I added one, OMG I will never not have one with a SPS tank again. So much less work and you get the added benafit of rock solid stability. No more sudden drops and rises with buffers. If you are going to stay with dosing, I would recommend trying dosing Kalk till you get a reactor. Its cheaper and in my opinion great at holding levels stabile... but its work.

Good luck whatever you decide, it looks like your heading in the right direction.

[Nyles]

oh if your shopping, waves has a sale on used cal reactors and tanks and regulators. Feel free to ask questions about them.

http://www.pnwmas.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1770

[andy]

A reactor would be great, but too expensive for right now. I think I'll try keeping a better eye on the buffers, and maybe go with Kalk if that doesn't work. Until I get a handle on things, no more SPS. Thanks again for all the great advice

[Nyles]

Just keep an eye out, there is great deals on them if you know where to look, I got a great one only 3 months old with tank, pump, regulator, ph controller, and media for $200, retail on all of it was well over $600

[andy]

That is a good deal. I'll look around

[siskiou]

Miles,

what exactly were the calcium blocks you mentioned earlier?

[impur]

Sean sells em, they are Sealab No. 23 calcium blocks or something like that. Worked really well for me.

[Nyles]

I will keep an eye out on a reactor for ya Andy, but don't wait for me, but I do run into them from time to time. I picked mine up in Vancouver at a guy that was running a fish store in his garage. He had alot of good deals, Im just glad I only brought 200 bucks because my wife would have killed me.

[andy]

I think I may DIY one... not sure, got some bills to pay and want to make sure Santa visits this year too. Definitely let me know if you see a sweetheart deal though, thanks!

[siskiou]

Sean sells em, they are Sealab No. 23 calcium blocks or something like that. Worked really well for me.

Thanks!

I'll keep those in mind for later!

[impur]

I think I may DIY one... not sure, got some bills to pay and want to make sure Santa visits this year too. Definitely let me know if you see a sweetheart deal though, thanks!

My DIY reactor cost me about $200 total, that doesn't include the controller though.

[Nyles]

Andy give this guy a pm, I bet you can get a good deal..... good luck mate!

http://thereeftank.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84798

[powdertang05]

i use kents 2 part for alk and calcium and i have 2 other frag tanks and that tank has the same or better results then my calcium reator frag tanks. i also use kalkwasser with any ro/di water replenishment. also ive used the iron based PO4 like phosban and have found that the kent sponge or seachem works the best if you dont have softies its the best it drops my po4 from like .3 to 0 like in an hour and keeps it there for a month or two i only keep it in there fro 3 days and you must i mean must rinse it alot because if you dotn the particles get into the water can cause problems just like the iron one. but other then that best stuff every used and its reusable.