SPS Emergency

[downhill_biker]

I had some corals go into major RTN this morning and didn't know what the problem was. I fragged the good portion of the corals and they stopped RTN. Shawn (coralreefaquarist) came over tonight and mentioned that one of the other members has some acro eating nudibranch's. One of the people he got corals from was me, and I haven't seen anything. But Shawn got home tonight and took pics of his new coral and he thinks there are parasites on them. He will post pics soon.

Please help ID this, and fix this if there is a problem. This may get really, really ugly as I have sold a bunch of corals lately...of course I would've aquired them fairly recently, so that may leave a lot of the Portland group out of this.

[andy]

Big alk swing? Check all your levels, even the ones you "know" are right.

[coralreefaquarist]

****. 120 percent thats them.i was watching them crawl(enforcer) not nudis flatworms! **** the piece was only in my tank for like 3 hours but it was prob enough time for them to spread.i was told there is a dip that will kill them right off the piece then you have to quarantine all of the acros for a long long long time, because the flatworms come off the acro at night lay there eggs in the rock and sand and come out and eat in the day.

this is them for sure look at all the light white. its bite marks. crapolla. i was told montis are ok aswell as milis. we will see.(sad)(sad)(sad)(sad)(sad)(sad)(sad)the good news they can be beat!

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a315/e21bimmer/IMG_2927.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a315/e21bimmer/IMG_2932.jpg

[coralreefaquarist]

suuuuuuucccccccccckkkkkkkk(scary)i just got a few nice sps

[downhill_biker]

i am not an expert but i would say those look like redbugs. i am researching now.

[fishmanmike01]

Call me stupid, what is RTN?

[downhill_biker]

Yeah, they are redbugs:

http://www.melevsreef.com/redbugs.html

This sucks. I am investigating the infestation now. Shawn, check all your corals, check the red planet and the tricolor table acro.

[coralreefaquarist]

yeah ive been lookin for 15 mins all others seem fine.

[downhill_biker]

Call me stupid, what is RTN?

Rapid Tissue Necrosis:

http://www.reefhq.com.au/home/behind_the_scenes/coral_disease

[coralreefaquarist]

redbugs flatworms suck. we must use interceptor?

[coralreefaquarist]

we need to figure out where you got them. if it dosent get sorted soon all sps keepers on pnwmas could have this prob in no time

[Frank]

Of the ones that I picked up a few weeks ago I don't see anything haven't lost any thing and don't see bites on anything... With me having lots of frags it easy for me to see them and so far so good I don't know if this helps with the time line...

[downhill_biker]

redbugs flatworms suck. we must use interceptor?

Looks like it. Melev recommends more people do it, even without redbugs, because the treatment is easy and very effective. I guess I need to send out a bunch of pm's and let people know to check their corals. I have no idea when i got them, so check your corals. Melev said they can exist in a reef tank forever without causing problems, he sees them every once in a while, and they usually aren't harmful.

So, you can probably treat the one coral, but I need to treat the entire tank, once a week for 3 weeks.

Now...Is my 6 line eating these?

[downhill_biker]

Shawn did you check your red planet and your tricolor table? Those corals are the closest to the one that has them on it. I have a couple other corals with them, but nothing major. They are hit and miss.

[downhill_biker]

during that trip where i traded corals, i bought frags from seahorse, upscales, and got corals from mrgreenthumb.

since then i got corals from nyles and josh, but those were this weekend, and wouldn't play a factor in this, except that they may have got them from me.

[R-3]

Yeah those are redbugs guys not flatworms. There are much easier to get rid of. Very easy compared to others.

You have a expert in Miles down there in Eugene. He has fought off every possible infestation you can get in the reef world :)

I would get some TMPCC and talk to Miles.

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_viewitem.aspx?idproduct=TP2191&child=TP2191&utm_source=mdcsegooglebase&utm_medium=cse&utm_term=TP2191&utm_content=TropicMarinProCoralCure200ml&utm_campaign=mdcse&site=google_base

[downhill_biker]

I really dont know if that stuff is better than interceptor. interceptor seems to be what is recommended by everyone when it comes to redbugs. melev says that he removed shrimp to keep from harming them, so would crabs need to be removed too? starfish? snails? or just shrimp?

[JasonH]

TMPCC will work as a dip, but Interseptor will treat the whole tank. As Curtis mentioned, once a week for three weeks.

It will kill all crabs and shrimp (including most of your pod populations) so if you can get those out of your tank for the duration, you should.

Red Bugs suck, but they are probably the easiest of the dreaded three (along with AEFW and Monti eating nudis) to get rid of.

I don't know about starfish, but snails aren't harmed by interceptor.

[JasonH]

P.S. that's the best picture of red bugs and the damage they do that I've ever seen.

[Nyles]

TMPCC those bad boys, I had them 18 months ago, interceptor helped, but TMPCC is what finally killed them off. Interceptor did most the work, then when I seen some on a coral I would just dip that particular coral, it was not fun.

[impur]

Yep those be redbugs. My personal opinion would be to remove all acros to QT and do weekly TMPCC dips. 3 should do it, then leave the tank free of acros for 8 weeks.

I just found out i have AEFW, again! Luckily i haven't sold anything to anyone for awhile. But i don't know where i got them. I QT everthing except for corals i get from a few select people. Guess thats gonna have to change.

[Nyles]

You are a pro bug collector.

[impur]

Yep. I enjoy killing these guys. My wrasse sure loves em too.

[Michael7979]

Has anyone had any luck taking a turkey-baster and blowing them off corals so their fish can eat them? Just to reduce numbers.

I know it is not a cure. More curious then anything.

But the fish sure would love them.

[downhill_biker]

wouldn't "trying to save my pod population" kindof defeat the purpose? if i get rock out of the tank, then it may have eggs right? i am just worried about my mandarin dragonet.

[albertareef]

Yep. I enjoy killing these guys. My wrasse sure loves em too.

Miles, what kind of wrasse do you have? Hopefully it's a moot point for me but it would be good to be prepared...

[impur]

Its a yellow coris wrasse. Didn't really hunt when i first got it, but now its hunting all day. Not a solution, but i can see it helps keep the populations down.

[CA2OR]

that sounds like a decent solution. shoot I might get one too. Thanks Miles.

[downhill_biker]

that sounds like a decent solution. shoot I might get one too. Thanks Miles.

its not a solution. they just help. just like having a cleaner shrimp isn't going to get rid of ich. they keep populations down, but they dont "fix" the problem. if you want a good pest eater, the sixline wrasse is known for eating pests. it is the original tride-and-true pest eater.

[tidalsculpin]

So sorry to hear this. So Miles, 8 weeks of qt? Might as well set up a new sps nanoreef.

[CA2OR]

so he should get a six line?

[downhill_biker]

so he should get a six line?

no if he already has a fish that is playing the role of pest control. what i said was, it is not a solution, but rather a helpful piece in reducing pet population numbers. i was saying for you; if you are looking for a pest control fish, a sixline is a surefire bet. just dont think that it is going to be a solution.

[CA2OR]

oh...duh. Sorry misunderstood. I already ordered my six line so thanks for the verification on a good order.

[impur]

So sorry to hear this. So Miles, 8 weeks of qt? Might as well set up a new sps nanoreef.

Yah no doubt! I have a couple sheets of acrylic, might be a fun DIY!

[downhill_biker]

so how do i know the amount to dose my tank? i am going to do the interceptor, but i am having a hard time finding a quantity doseage. eric borneman says the concentration can vary, but gives no starting point. i need a relative med/gal.

[JasonH]

Eesh - this is my memory from about 3 years ago, so keep that in mind. I will do a quick search to see if I can find instructions, but I believe that one pill (of the large dog size) will treat 300-350 gallons (was something odd, like 340). So grind up a pill - e.g. between two spoons - and then proportion accordingly.

Remember, if you have any ornamental crabs/shrimp, they will be killed, too - so get them out for the duration if you can.

Mix the pill dust up in a small amount of water to get it desolved, them pour into the tank.

Good luck - and remember to repeat weekly for two more dosages. Good luck.

I believe recommendation is to leave for at least 6 hours before running carbon, but I would wait longer, since Interceptor doesn't harm anything except red bugs.

[JasonH]

Ah, here we go:


The dosage used in an aquarium to kill red bugs is 25 mg per 10 gallons of actual tank water. That is 25 mg of the entire tablet. Each tablet in the pack of 6 will treat about 380 gallons. The tablets are ground with a mortar and pestle into a fine powder.

The entire volume of water in the system must be considered as the pill will dissolve into the whole system, not just main aquarium. Thus, it is necessary to take into account things like the sump, a refugium, the water in a skimmer, calcium reactor, canister filter, or any large pieces of plumbing. Also, before adding the medication to your tank, turn off your skimmer and any UV sterilizers and ozone generators. Then, remove any mechanical filtration and carbon if present.

Remove any shrimp or crabs that you want to save. They will have to stay out of the system for the duration of the treatment. However, be warned that if you add them back to your tank, there is a slight chance that you will re-introduce the red bugs to your tank.

The next step is to dissolve the medication into some aquarium water, a process that will likely require stirring, as the powder is not very water soluble. Then, spread the mixed water evenly across the surface of the water. Your tank should remain perfectly clear and look normal the entire time. The bugs hang on well into the 4th and 5th hour of the treatment as their appendages will still be hanging onto the flesh. Many of the bugs may even hang on for days even after they are dead.

If anything goes wrong during treatment perform a water change ASAP and add a large amount of carbon to your system.

After 6 hours, a 25% minimum water change is performed and as much activated carbon as you can fit should be added to the tank. In the initial tests, crustaceans that were reintroduced to a tank after a 25% water change and carbon were unaffected by the medication. 24 hours later the water should be changed again and the carbon replaced. There is no maximum for the water changes or carbon, the more you do the better.

The treatment needs to be performed a minimum of 3 times as the medication does not kill them at every stage of their life. Thus, even though most adults may be killed in the first treatment, there may be some juveniles and eggs that remain which were not affected by the treatment. The third treatment is a “just in case” treatment, its goal is to get any bugs that could have possibly survived the first two.

[downhill_biker]

thanks jason. that is exactly what i needed to know. borneman agrees with you, he suggests doing 12 hours, since it doesn't hurt anything to go longer. i am worried that my acro crabs wont fair well out of their colonies, but they dont have much of a choice if i dont move them they die for sure.

[Michael7979]

Make sure you turn off your skimmer during treatment.

[JasonH]

You're welcome - glad it was helpful.

Oh, that sucks. Your acro crabs won't survive the treatment.

You could try to get them out of the coral, but that's so hard that you'll likely damage the coral and possibly kill the crab anyway.

That really sucks, I can't wait to get some acro crabs. It would break my heart to have to kill them medicating the tank. (sad)

[downhill_biker]

I got most of the crabs and shrimp out of the tank. I am still having trouble with a couple of shrimp that are playing hard to get. I finally found the interceptor and it should get here in a couple days. Should be bug free soon.

[impur]

Good to hear, did what we talked about work?

[coralreefaquarist]

i have them too(clap) when do i get my red bug club bumper sticker(scratch).

ill be doing interceptor as well(whistle)

the only critters i really care about are my acro crabs(scratch) how the hell am i getting them out

[impur]

Interesting. I have AEFW and you both have redbugs. I always seem to get some pest this time of year every year.

[Nyles]

DH, I hate to tell you but I lost all 8 or 9 of my acro crabs when I dosed. Given I was not shy about the amount as I wanted those suckers (RB's) out.

[JasonH]

Yikes - AEFW, Red bugs. I've talked to some folks semi-recently that had (those whose name is too terrible to mention).

The nasties seem to be going around these days. (scary)

I'm going to go home and stare at my tank through a magnifying glass for a few hours tonight.

[albertareef]

Good luck Curtis, Shawn and Miles - hope you guys beat back the bugs with minimal losses. And Jason, don't even mention monti-eating nudis! :D

[JasonH]

There, fixed.

And yes, good luck, gents. Sorry about the lost acro crabs. DOH!

[impur]

Thanks! I will beat them with no losses. Done it twice before (laugh) Its not that big of a deal anymore.

Monti eating nudis is another animal. I lost all my montis to them, i really never want to get those again.

[albertareef]

Yikes - AEFW, Red bugs. I've talked to some folks semi-recently that had (those whose name is too terrible to mention).



OK... that is pretty funny (laugh)(laugh)

[downhill_biker]

Good to hear, did what we talked about work?

No, I tried taking the printout of treatment to the vet, and nobody would sell me the interceptor. I got it from one of the LFS up in Portland.

[downhill_biker]

I dont know if the redbugs were the culprit of my coral RTN. I checked water yesterday and noticed that my nitrates creeped up to about 10. I did a large water change, and am using some seachem de-nitrate. do you guys think that 10ppm nitrate is high enough to kill SPS?

[impur]

FWIW way back when i had redbugs i had them for probably 6 months before i knew they were there. Corals dulled in color, but i never lost any from the redbugs.

[garrettm85]

Die redbugs die! I would also recommend, if possible, and if you like them, dragonface pipefish. They are pretty awesome critters and do really well in reef tanks in my experience. I have had friends that had redbugs and introduced a couple of these guys and within weeks they had no redbugs and never had an issue again. I also used to keep one in one of my tanks just because I thought they looked badass and were fun to watch. They will compete slightly with your mandarine, but typically eat slightly smaller microfauna(unlike the six-lines IMO).

Garrett

[downhill_biker]

Thanks miles and garrett.

Miles, I didn't know how much the redbugs were "killing" the coral, as much as they were irritating the coral. That is good info to know, just what i was thinking.

Garrett, I already have the mandarin and six line, do you think my system could support another fish? Especially another pod eater?

[garrettm85]

Personally I am not sure that I would try it unless I was feeding microfauna to my system from another source. It would kind of be fun to see if that did help, but at the same time I would hate to see a sustainable pod population decrease and cause problems with the mandarine and six-line. Remember dragon face pipes will usually go for the really small critters like redbugs whereas the mandarine and six-line tend to go with the bigger critters. Not to say that they won't go for the smaller ones on occasion too.

Garrett

[Mr S]

Sorry for the hijack. What eats flatworms besides a velvet nudibranch? Will the pipefish or 6 line?
ps. Is there such a thing as a cigar fish? I know, lame joke!

[Michael7979]

I have heard of mandrains eating flatworms.

[impur]

My coris wrasse eats em.

[jason7504]

will 6-lines eat red bugs since they can eat parasites?

[downhill_biker]

I came home from work today and took all my rocks out and caught all the shrimp. I have been catching crabs for the last week. I smashed up my interceptor pill and did my first treatment. Everything looks great and dont know if I still have red bugs, but they "should" be dead by now.

[coralreefaquarist]

picked up a interceptor pill today need to call curtis to get exact instructions but plan to dose tomarow(plotting)

[impur]

A sixline won't get rid of all the redbugs, if it eats them at all.


Glad to hear it went well Curtis. 1 dose down 2 to go!!

[coralreefaquarist]

so i dosed the interceptor 3-4 days ago. everything went well. i couldnt get the acro crabs out. sucks i really love them and its not like you can order acro crabs(sad). but when it comes down to 1 gizilion dollars in sps or a few freebie crabs. living and adorable personalitys or not. i chose the sps. everything has gone smooth. my mandarins have kinda been spazing out not being able to find pods. but i have them both on like and frozen brine multiple times a day. and its working well. havent seen any red bugs. all corals look great(rock2)

[albertareef]

Good to hear it's going well Shawn. Sorry about the acro crabs though... definitely a bummer but, as you say, not much to be done. Hopefully you and Curtis will have the red bugs whipped her pretty soon. (enforcer)

[coralreefaquarist]

yeah i figure to be safe no trades out for a month and a half. but im sure 3 doses will destroy everything.i plan to add at least a few different bottles of live pods to seed it for the mandarins. i figure 8,000 love pods should be able to start a new population.

[downhill_biker]

yeah i figure to be safe no trades out for a month and a half. but im sure 3 doses will destroy everything.i plan to add at least a few different bottles of live pods to seed it for the mandarins. i figure 8,000 love pods should be able to start a new population.

If that is what you want to do that is fine. "Being Safe" would be 3 weeks. The red bugs are killed after the first treatment and after that it is just precautionary in order to kill any that somehow missed it, like eggs. Both Borneman and Melev say that 3 treatments is "for sure" death to the red bugs and all of their offspring.

[coralreefaquarist]

good to know.ill prob still wait. i would hate to do a bunch of trades and have someone get 1 somehow. plus if i myself would feel a little weary buying from someone who just had red bugs. i dunno i figure it will give me an whoever a little piece of mind.

[impur]

I did 1 dose when i had them and they were back in 2 weeks FWIW.

Multiple doses are definately needed.

[downhill_biker]

I agree with both of those comments. I just dont want anyone to feel afraid when I trade corals before I move. I am doing the 3 week treatment and it is proven to be enough to guarantee the death of redbugs.

[downhill_biker]

Treatment #2 done. All corals are looking great and haven't seen a single red bug. Only one more week to go!!!

[albertareef]

Good to hear Curtis! Hope you will be permanently bug free soon (rock2)

[downhill_biker]

One of my clams isn't looking so hot. It isn't dead, so hopefully it comes back. I know that when they truly die, they do it very fast. Let's keep our fingers crossed.